General Tsao's Cold War

[gehringer_2]

44 minutes ago, smr-nj said:

Maybe ….. he sneezed on the wrong guy. 😁

Remains to be seen if we see this person in public any time soon, or ever. Like I said before, it’s doubtful we’ll know the actual story behind this.  Not officially, anyway.

this happened on Oct22 last year. Hu was seen at Zemin's funeral afterwards. from WIKIp:

 

Quote

Following the death of his predecessor Jiang Zemin, Hu was appointed to serve on the funeral committee, ranked 36th on the list out of over 700 names.[73] Hu Jintao appeared in public alongside Xi Jinping on 5 December 2022, attending the farewell ceremony before Jiang's body was cremated in Babaoshan Revolutionary Cemetery.[74] He was accompanied by an aide.

 

 

[romad1]

2 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

this happened on Oct22 last year. Hu was seen at Zemin's funeral afterwards. from WIKIp:

 

 

 

A colleague who is a china linguist and who follows all this very closely says that Hu is headed for the glue factory from that Communist Party meeting he got escorted from.

[romad1]

https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/2023/11/08/gotion-big-rapids-economic-development-recall-leaders-whitmer-michigan-business/71502479007/

interesting

[romad1]

10 minutes ago, romad1 said:

https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/2023/11/08/gotion-big-rapids-economic-development-recall-leaders-whitmer-michigan-business/71502479007/

interesting

well, this is a huge amount of horse crap

Quote

Much of the opposition to the Gotion plant comes amid increasing scrutiny and criticism of a project opponents suggest — without evidence — has nefarious ties to the Chinese government. But there is also criticism of possible future environmental contamination, massive amounts of taxpayer money going to the project and a general lack of transparency or engagement as to whether locals wanted the facility in the first place

Its a communist country.  They do not have any organization that is free of the government control and the PRC is currently engaged in a very active effort to steal US technology in all sectors. 

[romad1]

very true

[gehringer_2]

19 hours ago, romad1 said:

Its a communist country.

It strikes me that we need some new term for these regimes that may have had their seeds in Marxism but have moved almost completely away from a Marxist economic model. Putin has taken Russia all the way to plain dictatorship, so the description there is simple enough, but we could use a new word for what a place like China is:  "Capunism"?  Comsicm? Who is this era's William Safire when you need  a new word coined?

[romad1]

38 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

It strikes me that we need some new term for these regimes that may have had their seeds in Marxism but have moved almost completely away from a Marxist economic model. Putin has taken Russia all the way to plain dictatorship, so the description there is simple enough, but we could use a new word for what a place like China is:  "Capunism"?  Comsicm? Who is this era's William Safire when you need  a new word coined?

Communist in that is single party rule is the perfect match for what is happening.  Marxist - Leninist or Maoist it might not be.

[Tigeraholic1]

2 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

It strikes me that we need some new term for these regimes that may have had their seeds in Marxism but have moved almost completely away from a Marxist economic model. Putin has taken Russia all the way to plain dictatorship, so the description there is simple enough, but we could use a new word for what a place like China is:  "Capunism"?  Comsicm? Who is this era's William Safire when you need  a new word coined?

1,000% Communist

 

Wiki definition:

A communist society would entail the absence of private property and social classes, and ultimately money and the state (or nation state).

 

[gehringer_2]

11 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

1,000% Communist

 

Wiki definition:

A communist society would entail the absence of private property and social classes, and ultimately money and the state (or nation state).

 

they have private property in China, just no effective rule of law to protect owner rights from state fiat. It's a fair argument that's a sort of distinction without a difference, but while there is still a lot state owned industry in China - especially around the Red Army/defense sector, the concept of communal ownership of the means of production isn't much of an organizing principle for development in China. No doubt Xi had/has designs to reverse that tend, but I don't think he's gotten very far. China has also been ranked by some methods as having the world's most billionaires, so economic class stratification is very much alive.

[Tigeraholic1]

4 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

they have private property in China, just no effective rule of law to protect owner rights from state fiat. It's a fair argument that's a sort of distinction without a difference, but while there is still a lot state owned industry in China - especially around the Red Army/defense sector, the concept of communal ownership of the means of production isn't much of an organizing principle for development in China. No doubt Xi had/has designs to reverse that tend, but I don't think he's gotten very far. China has also been ranked by some methods as having the world's most billionaires, so economic class stratification is very much alive.

A country of haves and the have nots. For every Billionaire there are a million poor to nealry poor citizens. If gov't wants to take your land or posessions I am pretty sure they will. 

[Jim Cowan]

Too many billionaires to be called communist.  How about brutal dictatorship?

[1984Echoes]

It's not even 100% communist, let alone 1000%.

Land and business ownership, millionaires and billionaires...

It's a single-party dictatorship with both Communist and Capitalist elements.

If it came to a fight though... Xi Jinping wins and therefore communism wins.

He's initiated a lot of skirmishes and won multiple internal battles... but I don't believe it's a full-blown internal war, at least not yet... So I think my bolded statement still holds...

[Jim Cowan]

Chinese Communist Party is about communism in the same way that National Socialism was about socialism.  Which is to say, not at all.

[Biff Mayhem]

I have a brother-in-law in China who owns a very successful electrical contractor company and lets just say he has a lot of late nights wining and dining government officials. If he got on the wrong side of these folks, the business would be kapoot.

Still, I ask, how does that differ from the US? If you get on the wrong side of federal government personnel, you're done here too but perhaps not in the same manner.

[1984Echoes]

1 hour ago, Biff Mayhem said:

I have a brother-in-law in China who owns a very successful electrical contractor company and lets just say he has a lot of late nights wining and dining government officials. If he got on the wrong side of these folks, the business would be kapoot...

Exactly. Capitalism trying to survive inside of a communist structure. NOT 100% communism.

 

1 hour ago, Biff Mayhem said:

Still, I ask, how does that differ from the US? If you get on the wrong side of federal government personnel, you're done here too but perhaps not in the same manner.

This...

I do NOT agree with.

As long as a business is not breaking the law... there is almost 100% (I say almost because I never want to put absolutes on this...) certainty that the business will have no issues with the federal government. That would include taxes, waste disposal, code, etc... I'm sure someone can find or illustrate an exception... but, ok, let's say 99.9% no problems as long as the law is followed.

Now, following the law may be burdensome in the US, we have more codes than any other country on the planet... but that doesn't change the narrative.

Break the law, codes or tax or anything... yeah, a business may run into issues with US or state officials (if they even get caught); otherwise, it's business as usual in the US... with OUT worrying about state interventions or bribery or some such...

THAT's how China is different than the US.

And it's not even close.

[Tiger337]

3 hours ago, 1984Echoes said:

Exactly. Capitalism trying to survive inside of a communist structure. NOT 100% communism.

 

This...

I do NOT agree with.

As long as a business is not breaking the law... there is almost 100% (I say almost because I never want to put absolutes on this...) certainty that the business will have no issues with the federal government. That would include taxes, waste disposal, code, etc... I'm sure someone can find or illustrate an exception... but, ok, let's say 99.9% no problems as long as the law is followed.

Now, following the law may be burdensome in the US, we have more codes than any other country on the planet... but that doesn't change the narrative.

Break the law, codes or tax or anything... yeah, a business may run into issues with US or state officials (if they even get caught); otherwise, it's business as usual in the US... with OUT worrying about state interventions or bribery or some such...

THAT's how China is different than the US.

And it's not even close.

And, in the United States, if the company is big enough, if you don't like the laws you can get them changed.  

[CMRivdogs]

57 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

And, in the United States, if the company is big enough, if you don't like the laws you can get them changed.  

Like DeSantis with Disney? Or folks who don't like beer companies advertising to gay people.

 

[romad1]

1 hour ago, Tiger337 said:

And, in the United States, if the company is big enough, if you don't like the laws you can get them changed.  

Jack Ma would disagree with any comp with the US.   He couldn't say that he disagrees but...

[ewsieg]

Doesn't China coin it as Socialist Capitalism or something like that?   

 

The stories I hear from smaller businesses over there is that it's probably like having a business in New Jersey when the mob was big.  A guy I went to school with worked at his dad's business.  They made paint/stain in Michigan and shipped it to China (I was surprised by that too) then had a distribution warehouse in China.  They had to hire a daughter from one of the local officials and she was essentially a no-show employee.  

Keep her on the payroll and don't cause trouble, and they were good.

Edited November 13, 2023 by ewsieg

[Tigeraholic1]

18 hours ago, CMRivdogs said:

Like DeSantis with Disney? Or folks who don't like beer companies advertising to gay people.

 

What laws changing caused folks to stop buying a brand of beer?

[romad1]

Now imagine what happens when Desantis has the heads of Disney murdered or sent to a reeducation camp where their families are threatened until he gets them to modify their views to something more amenable to the prevailing doctrine. 

[CMRivdogs]

27 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

What laws changing caused folks to stop buying a brand of beer?

OK no laws were broken but so called "christian" politicians did have an impact on the bottom line on the sale of a certain brand of beer. TBH I suppose you could say the same about the other side on businesses like Chick Fil A or Hobby Lobby (which has reportedly cut way back on their Hanukkah related crafts)

[chasfh]

On 11/10/2023 at 8:37 PM, Jim Cowan said:

Chinese Communist Party is about communism in the same way that National Socialism was about socialism.  Which is to say, not at all.

But … but … if National Socialists aren’t socialists, how else can right wingers fairly call Democrat socialists Nazis?

[romad1]

Actually... does anyone here actually have travel experience to China?   I would think that Detroit-oriented group like this one would given all the business interconnectedness. 

I'd be curious that perspective. 

[chasfh]

I would bet there is periodic malfeasance with politicians pressuring small local businesses for favors, payoffs, etc. here in America, but I wouldn’t bet that it is endemic to anywhere near the degree it is in many other countries. But I also wouldn’t bet on the state of affairs remaining exactly the same in future America, either. As with everything else, it depends who ends up running things.