The Tigers have fired Al Avila

[Mr.TaterSalad]

42 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

We've come a long way from the "Hinch is gonna opt out" days, haven't we?

In all seriousness, I do think it's a positive that Hinch will have a role in this... he shouldn't have the only say in it, of course, but he's been overall a positive for the franchise and it signals that, while significant changes may be made, it may not be a total teardown either.

I still feel someone from outside the organization needs to be brought in to work with Hinch and Chris Illitch on this one. It cannot be next man up like it was with Al. If Hinch decides he wants a guy he is familiar with from the Astros like Jeff Luhnow, Pete Putila, or Scott Powers then I'm not opposed to that. I just want there to be an outside voice guiding Chris and Hinch towards making the smart decision and not simply going on who AJ already knows.

[buddha]

as someone pointed out already, luhnow is in the ownership group who just bought a lower level soccer team in mexico and a second division team in spain.  that might keep him busy.  not sure what his role is on those teams.

[Mr.TaterSalad]

1 hour ago, RandyMarsh said:

My teenage self did think Juan Encarnacion was going to be Andruw Jones or Gary Sheffield back in 1999.

I was a kid during the Randy Smith years and followed this team religiously on PASS, UPN 50, and then FSD. Watched games weekly, read all the box scores, had a Cecil jersey, collected Greg Keagle and Jose Lima baseball cards. I was so hyped up on so many Randy Smith prospects that went no where from Encarnacion to Justin Thompson to Matt Anderson. I was an angry and disappointed 11 year old kid when Randy traded Gonzo straight up for Karim Garcia. What a fiasco of a trade.

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

He as the owner is supposed to accept final responsibility for the moves which he surely had to approve, rather than throw up his hands as say hey, it wasnt me, it’s a no my job. 

they were still negotiating on the deal by the minute to the last minute with the JV deal. I would think in a situation like that the boss has to approve the outline but let his negotiator finish the deal on his own judgment at the wire. Or short version, I doubt C.I. took a final approval on the particulars that is was Rogers, Perez and Cameron rather than some alternate return. So in that sense, it's both true that C.I. did approve the deal but it was still all Al's choices - 'his deal' all the way.

As has already been noted -- I agree that In that case the owner's perspective is the same as the fans' - it wasn't making the trade that had to necessarily be bad, a good return could have justified it.

Edited August 11, 2022 by gehringer_2

[Tiger337]

2 hours ago, buddha said:

i bet someone thought they were in 1998.

Jake:  "Inge is the greatest defensive player in baseball history"

[gehringer_2]

We all agree Avila was a bad trader. To me it came down to being too greedy. I know that sounds ironic since he seldom did get a good return, but it's not at the point of the trade where his 'greed' did him in, it was in trying to both use and trade the same resource, which just doesn't work. Fulmer being the easy example. He didn't want to sign Fulmer, but he held him this year hoping the team would be good enough that Fulmer would be a difference maker and so it would be worth it to drain his trade value. But of course it blew up in his face. The team didn't "need" Fulmer for it to accomplish anything as the team accomplished exactly nothing, meanwhile Fulmer's trade value ran out as he became a rental and we got nothing, nor did the Tigers ever pursue him lock up as a longer term resource. You have to commit one way or the other. You are either selling out to win or you are building for the future. Either might work, half and half is fatal.

Al's problem is the he was always half in and half out. He always talked the long term game, and maybe organizationally that were/are committed to a long term view and build process, but in the immediacy of trading, he pretty consistently sacrificed the preservation of long term roster value for short term gain that mostly ended up unrealized anyway.

Couple that with the team's inability to successfully identify good prospects in other orgs when they traded 'down', and here we are.

Edited August 11, 2022 by gehringer_2

[Mr.TaterSalad]

Hell of a team Randy Smith assembled in 1996. Look at that rotation and outfield he had put together. A murderers row of Tony Clark, Bobby Higginson, Travis Fryman, and Kimera Bartee. With Buddy Bell managing, who can believe they only went 53-109. Shocking!

 

Edited August 11, 2022 by Mr.TaterSalad

[RedRamage]

15 hours ago, romad1 said:

That damn tiger coming through the D logo...it took forever for that to leave the scene

[romad1]

11 minutes ago, RedRamage said:

I actually don’t mind that

[Longgone]

33 minutes ago, buddha said:

as someone pointed out already, luhnow is in the ownership group who just bought a lower level soccer team in mexico and a second division team in spain.  that might keep him busy.  not sure what his role is on those teams.

There's a reason he's out of baseball, and it has nothing to do with the little cheating scandal. The man has issues, there are many who wouldn't hire him and many who won't work for him. He's not someone you want leading your organization.

[Mr.TaterSalad]

2 minutes ago, Longgone said:

There's a reason he's out of baseball, and it has nothing to do with the little cheating scandal. The man has issues, there are many who wouldn't hire him and many who won't work for him. He's not someone you want leading your organization.

If he and Hinch can build this team into a World Series winner as they did in Houston will any fan or member of Detroit media give two bleeps about what type of person Lunhow is? Winning forgives most all sins.

[mtutiger]

4 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

If he and Hinch can build this team into a World Series winner as they did in Houston will any fan or member of Detroit media give two bleeps about what type of person Lunhow is? Winning forgives most all sins.

Why hire Luhnow when you can hire someone else who can also win for you?

I get that guys like Theo Epstein and Jeff Luhnow have a track record, but there was a time where they were once unknown executives who earned jobs in this league as well.

I just don't know that this whole "Epstein/Luhnow or bust" mentality is right. I do obviously agree that independent voices would help in ascertaining who the right person is, but the right person doesn't necessarily have to be the big name guy. Go find the next Epstein or Luhnow...

Edited August 11, 2022 by mtutiger

[casimir]

I’m still not sure how St. AJ let it come to this after last season, but maybe that’s just me.

[casimir]

11 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

If he and Hinch can build this team into a World Series winner as they did in Houston will any fan or member of Detroit media give two bleeps about what type of person Lunhow is? Winning forgives most all sins.

 Not always.

[Mr.TaterSalad]

16 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Why hire Luhnow when you can hire someone else who can also win for you?

I get that guys like Theo Epstein and Jeff Luhnow have a track record, but there was a time where they were once unknown executives who earned jobs in this league as well.

I just don't know that this whole "Epstein/Luhnow or bust" mentality is right. I do obviously agree that independent voices would help in ascertaining who the right person is, but the right person doesn't necessarily have to be the big name guy. Go find the next Epstein or Luhnow...

I don't think for me or most fans it is Epstein, Lunhow or bust. We are very much enticed by the proven track record of their success. In Theo's case, he has been able to replicate it in multiple organizations. Epstein is my first choice for GM, but I'd still be very much open and still very much want this organization to do a proper search, with outside help. I also don't have any real expectation that Esptein would even come here, so it's more of a pipe dream really.

[buddha]

42 minutes ago, Longgone said:

There's a reason he's out of baseball, and it has nothing to do with the little cheating scandal. The man has issues, there are many who wouldn't hire him and many who won't work for him. He's not someone you want leading your organization.

he had a few anger mgmt issues, iirc.

[Tiger337]

43 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

If he and Hinch can build this team into a World Series winner as they did in Houston will any fan or member of Detroit media give two bleeps about what type of person Lunhow is? Winning forgives most all sins.

Fans and media won't care, but Tigers employees would.  

[mtutiger]

I shared this in the game thread, but this is gonna be a space to watch with a new GM coming in.

[Stanley70]

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

We all agree Avila was a bad trader. To me it came down to being too greedy. I know that sounds ironic since he seldom did get a good return, but it's not at the point of the trade where his 'greed' did him in, it was in trying to both use and trade the same resource, which just doesn't work. Fulmer being the easy example. He didn't want to sign Fulmer, but he held him this year hoping the team would be good enough that Fulmer would be a difference maker and so it would be worth it to drain his trade value. But of course it blew up in his face. The team didn't "need" Fulmer for it to accomplish anything as the team accomplished exactly nothing, meanwhile Fulmer's trade value ran out as he became a rental and we got nothing, nor did the Tigers ever pursue him lock up as a longer term resource. You have to commit one way or the other. You are either selling out to win or you are building for the future. Either might work, half and half is fatal.

Al's problem is the he was always half in and half out. He always talked the long term game, and maybe organizationally that were/are committed to a long term view and build process, but in the immediacy of trading, he pretty consistently sacrificed the preservation of long term roster value for short term gain that mostly ended up unrealized anyway.

Couple that with the team's inability to successfully identify good prospects in other orgs when they traded 'down', and here we are.

For the first few years he was playing the long term game. In that time he traded Verlander, JD, Kinsler, Upton, Wilson, Greene, Castellanos, and Avila the Jr. Those trades didn't net one first division player. And aside from his top five picks and Skubal, his drafts and international signings didn't add anything either.

He ran out of time and couldn't keep rebuilding so he tried to win with what he had. It's why he should have been fired several years ago.

 

Edited August 11, 2022 by Stanley70

[RedRamage]

1 hour ago, casimir said:

I’m still not sure how St. AJ let it come to this after last season, but maybe that’s just me.

Are you daring to criticize the Manager?!?  Honestly I have some questions about AJ myself.  Last season I felt like he didn't have a lot to work with, but was getting the best he could out of the players he had.  This year I feel like he had a (slightly) better team but it's gotten much worse.

To be fair, injuries have been a major issue this year, but it just doesn't feel like the players are trying as hard as they did last year. I don't get the feeling they are all pulling together.  I'm not sure why this is, and I'm not ready to throw out AJ just yet, but I'm far less impressed and excited about the future now than I was last year around this time.

[casimir]

1 hour ago, mtutiger said:

I shared this in the game thread, but this is gonna be a space to watch with a new GM coming in.

Then put him on the IL if he isn’t going to be available.  How difficult of a concept is that?

[gkelly]

Why put Cabrera on the IL?

Some people still want to watch him play before he retires.   Who else does this franchise have to take his place?  Willi Castro?  Some other guy who hits around .200 with no power?  So many options.  Just let him play because this team isn't doing anything for the next 5 years. 

[gkelly]

The problem with having such a long stretch of pathetic baseball is that a whole generation of fans tend to lose interest in baseball.  I grew up in the 90s and, although I loved to play baseball, I never followed the Tigers because what the hell was the point?  They were a 3rd rate franchise always battling it out for last place in their division.  Other than the home run record chase, I really didn't pay any attention to major league baseball at all until around 2010.  I am near the point of not caring anymore.  I might catch a game here or there.  I am in a fantasy baseball league so that is really the only reason I pay attention to baseball at all.  My son has no interest in watching or following the Tigers.   Mike Ilitch didn't care if the franchise ever won for the first 15 years he owned them and his son has zero interest in building a winner.  The Fords don't care if the Lions ever win and I only catch the highlights now to see how many dumb things Dan Campbell will do during a game.  I don't care about the NBA or hockey, so I am pretty much done with pro sports.  I am not saying this to get pity , but because I think a lot of people feel this way: why spend any time on a franchise if the owners don't really care and don't try to win.  The owners are going to make money regardless of the level of competence of the product they put out there because of the television contracts, but they are driving away potential young fans and people like me who can certainly find better things to do with my time.    

[romad1]

Hire people who won’t cause late night press release situations involving la enforcement 

[casimir]

29 minutes ago, gkelly said:

Why put Cabrera on the IL?

Some people still want to watch him play before he retires.   Who else does this franchise have to take his place?  Willi Castro?  Some other guy who hits around .200 with no power?  So many options.  Just let him play because this team isn't doing anything for the next 5 years. 

Cabrera is unavailable to play.  So how can anyone watch him play?  And how riveting is it watching him plod towards 1B on another futile ground out?

Stop listening to Shep and ignore the shots of the hit and home run totals on the Ballys broadcast.  What exactly does he bring to the team from a competitive standpoint anymore?  Pay him his money, let him sit in the dugout and make cute faces for the camera, but remove him from the active roster.  He’s an absolute joke as a baseball player anymore.