The Tigers have fired Al Avila

[Edman85]

12 minutes ago, oblong said:

What do you mean?  He was the Braves manager in 82 and 83 and the Cards manager in 1993 when they won the stated number of games.

Oh, I thought you were talking years.

 

Carry on.

[oblong]

ah, I see.  I can understand that.

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, Edman85 said:

The GM does a lot more than select the players these days. They set the course of the organization. Baseball decisions are made by a team of people now. A lot of the role is managerial in nature.

I wasn't saying that was their entire role.  Of course they are not fantasy baseball owners.  I was just pointing out one of the main differences between managers and GMs.  Managers can only manage the players they are given.  GMs, along with the rest of their team, provide those players.  It's like any other big business.  There isn't just one person doing everything.  I am sure there is also a lot going on that fans don't know about.  I am just a fan though, so my main concern is what players they provide to the team.

Edited August 18, 2022 by Tiger337

[Edman85]

1 hour ago, Tiger337 said:

I wasn't saying that was their entire role.  Of course they are not fantasy baseball owners.  I was just pointing out one of the main differences between managers and GMs.  Managers can only manage the players they are given.  GMs, along with the rest of their team, provide those players.  It's like any other big business.  There isn't just one person doing everything.  I am sure there is also a lot going on that fans don't know about.  I am just a fan though, so my main concern is what players they provide to the team.

Yeah, I got you. I just kinda wanted to make it clear that things have changed a lot in the past 20 years or so.

[chasfh]

19 hours ago, oblong said:

I wouldn't refer to Torre as a "complete failure".  He won 88 and 89 with the Braves and 87 with the Cards.

 

I also wouldn't call Hinch a failure in Detroit. His roster is a load of shit no one could win with. He's proven he can win 100+ games with the right roster. Hinch is the least of the Tigers' problems.

[bobrob2004]

4 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I also wouldn't call Hinch a failure in Detroit. His roster is a load of shit no one could win with. He's proven he can win 100+ games with the right roster. Hinch is the least of the Tigers' problems.

That was the point of my comment.  We judge managers based on their W/L records even though it's the players that determine the outcome.  Hinch's reputation is solely based on how well he did in Houston.  Take that away and just focus on what he has done in Arizona and Detroit.  Would you believe he was capable of winning 100 games?  Take a look at Torre's career.  Would you believe he could win a bunch of World Series before going to New York?  

Managers are the most overrated part of the team and easily the most replaceable.  Get a guy in there who isn't entirely incompetent and they'll win if you give them the talent.  

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

I also wouldn't call Hinch a failure in Detroit. His roster is a load of shit no one could win with. He's proven he can win 100+ games with the right roster. Hinch is the least of the Tigers' problems.

And this year he'll probably prove he can lose 100 games with any roster, a roster where almost every position player failed to meet expectations.  He won so many games with Arizona that they fired him mid-season.  

Edited August 19, 2022 by Tiger337

[casimir]

17 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

And this year he'll probably prove he can lose 100 games with any roster, a roster where almost every position player failed to meet expectations.  He won so many games with Arizona that they fired him mid-season.  

I was thinking of this a bit the other day.  Last season's team (.475 winning percentage) overachieved.  This season's team (.375) has underachieved.  Split the difference, call it a .425 team (around a 68-94 season record) over the past two seasons.  Fair enough?

[mtutiger]

I like AJ Hinch, believe that we are lucky to have him given the circumstances and agree with those that believe he isn't remotely the biggest problem with the club right now. 

But I don't believe that he's fully clean of the issues going on with the club either.... Coolbaugh is a good place to start, as one imagines he has sway over who is and isn't on his coaching staff.

[gkelly]

1 hour ago, bobrob2004 said:

Hinch's reputation is

I would say it is more being an unethical, cheating low-life...or not having any control over the clubhouse and being inept in reigning in his players.

It's beyond comprehension how he didn't receive a lifetime suspension.  And with the view that managers really don't have that much control over anything, what was the point of the Tigers even hiring him?

Edited August 19, 2022 by gkelly

[chasfh]

As far as we have heard to this point, Hinch is not only not at any risk of getting fired, he basically represents the future of the organization, to the degree that he as the field manager is going to have a big hand in helping determine who the new GM is going to be. So like it or not, get used to that idea. 

[bobrob2004]

20 minutes ago, chasfh said:

As far as we have heard to this point, Hinch is not only not at any risk of getting fired, he basically represents the future of the organization, to the degree that he as the field manager is going to have a big hand in helping determine who the new GM is going to be. So like it or not, get used to that idea. 

Typical Chris Ilitch, shifting responsibility to someone else. He doesn't know who to hire for GM, so he's letting Hinch do it. 

[casimir]

Personally, I wouldn't rule it out that Hinch becomes the new GM and forgoes his on field responsibilities.

[Jim Cowan]

Where can I read about how Hinch is going to have a big hand in choosing the new GM?

[Tiger337]

51 minutes ago, gkelly said:

I would say it is more being an unethical, cheating low-life...or not having any control over the clubhouse and being inept in reigning in his players.

It's beyond comprehension how he didn't receive a lifetime suspension.  And with the view that managers really don't have that much control over anything, what was the point of the Tigers even hiring him?

I think they didn't get too harsh because they knew other teams were doing the same thing.  They wanted to use the Astros as an example because it became public.  Also, they didn't want to have to punish the Yankees or Red Sox.

I agree with you that how Hinch handled the situation does not reflect well on him as a manager.  

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, mtutiger said:

I like AJ Hinch, believe that we are lucky to have him given the circumstances and agree with those that believe he isn't remotely the biggest problem with the club right now. 

But I don't believe that he's fully clean of the issues going on with the club either.... Coolbaugh is a good place to start, as one imagines he has sway over who is and isn't on his coaching staff.

I also don't think he is the reason they are bad this year.  It's just that so many hitters have underperformed and it's odd that the the GM and batting coach get blamed, but the link between the coaches and the front office is is unquestioned.    

[Jim Cowan]

2 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I agree with you that how Hinch handled the situation does not reflect well on him as a manager.  

That is what people remember about him in Houston, not for winning one World Series with a ridiculously stacked team.

[mtutiger]

16 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I also don't think he is the reason they are bad this year.  It's just that so many hitters have underperformed and it's odd that the the GM and batting coach get blamed, but the link between the coaches and the front office is is unquestioned.    

Right. Just seems like there's very little daylight between thinking "AJ is the best thing that has happened to the Tigers" and "AJ Hinch is trash".... the reality is that he's a good baseball man who has had success in this league and has a ring, the Tigers are lucky to have him under the circumstances, but that he's also not perfect and has likely made some mistakes as well. 

Like a lot of subjects around the Tigers, it's just one that generally doesn't have room for nuance.

Edited August 19, 2022 by mtutiger

[gkelly]

6 hours ago, Jim Cowan said:

That is what people remember about him in Houston, not for winning one World Series with a ridiculously stacked team.

It is his legacy, and he could have put a stop to it at any time.  I get it that it wouldn't have been a popular thing to do with his players but he was in charge and the blame ultimately falls on him.  And when he gets fired in the near future after failing to do much with the Tigers, he might be viewed as just that guy who only won because his team cheated.  Fair or not.

I am curious how people view Sparky Anderson around here.  I know there is some sentiment that anyone could have won with the Big Red Machine, even though winning the WS is really, really tough.  In Detroit, do people think he is an underachiever who could only take his stacked team to the playoffs 2x?  I was pretty young in the 80s, so I don't have much of an opinion.

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, gkelly said:

It is his legacy, and he could have put a stop to it at any time.  I get it that it wouldn't have been a popular thing to do with his players but he was in charge and the blame ultimately falls on him.  And when he gets fired in the near future after failing to do much with the Tigers, he might be viewed as just that guy who only won because his team cheated.  Fair or not.

I am curious how people view Sparky Anderson around here.  I know there is some sentiment that anyone could have won with the Big Red Machine, even though winning the WS is really, really tough.  In Detroit, do people think he is an underachiever who could only take his stacked team to the playoffs 2x?  I was pretty young in the 80s, so I don't have much of an opinion.

As I remember it, Sparky did a lot of things as well or better than anyone, but his weakness was managing pitching - esp his bullpen. He really didn't have a feel for giving guys consistent work and then it was compounded by the FO giving him progressively less to work with year by year. But there was real shift when Roger Craig went off to manage his own team. Sparky had had two strong pitching coaches - assistant manager types really,  in Larry Shepard in Cincy and Craig in Det, but he never brought in another strong pitching coach in the rest of his years in Det. You can't separate that from the general decay in the talent he had available, which clearly was the more important factor by far, but I never got the impression in his later years that Sparky had much idea what he was doing with his pitching.

[RandyMarsh]

Outside of possibly managing the bullpen the most important thing for a manager for me are the things that happen behind the scenes that we as fans don't really have access to. Take Leyland for instance, I think this was one of his strong suits, he seemed to know when guys needed days off and new what buttons to push with each player to maximize their abilities.

Some may not have agreed with his in game tactical strategies(most notably some of his lineup constructions) but how he actually managed the team away from the field made up for any of his shortcomings. 

[sabretooth]

10 hours ago, mtutiger said:

I like AJ Hinch, believe that we are lucky to have him given the circumstances and agree with those that believe he isn't remotely the biggest problem with the club right now. 

But I don't believe that he's fully clean of the issues going on with the club either.... Coolbaugh is a good place to start, as one imagines he has sway over who is and isn't on his coaching staff.

This is where I am.  I will add that he has overachieved dramatically in the bullpen area, which is I think the area of roster management and on field play most influenced by the manager.

I think a number of us agree that while firing Coolbaugh would not solve the bad hitting, nevertheless its the only remotely plausible link between all of the wildly underperforming hitters, so its frustrating that Coolbaugh remains.

[Edman85]

Devil's advocate: without being on the inside, we can't say that the hitting implosion is Coolbaugh's fault.

[Tigermojo]

Assistant to the regional manager of the devil's advocate: they haven't solved the issue all season. Isn't it Coolbaugh's job to do that?

[Edman85]

What if the analytics staff or pro scouting outfit is a complete cluster and throwing everybody off? I'm not saying it is; I'm just saying unless you are behind the scenes you don't know the cause.

Also, the projection systems weren't too high on this offense coming into the season. It's underperformed, but not as much as we think, especially once you factor in the reduced run scoring environment.