The Tigers have fired Al Avila

[Tiger337]

50 minutes ago, buddha said:

the tigers had a really good bullpen in 2006.

True, but I don't think the rest of that team, was on par with Hinch's teams in Houston.  

[buddha]

4 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

True, but I don't think the rest of that team, was on par with Hinch's teams in Houston.  

2012 and 2013 were their best teams.  but cabrera got injured and leyland fucked up the boston series and they lost.

c'est la vie...ou, plus ca change, plus ca la meme chose.

[gehringer_2]

56 minutes ago, buddha said:

me too.

although i do wonder if fetters has anything to do with the rash of injuries to the pitching staff.

I noted before that one possible input from the coaching staff is what kind of sliders guys are throwing, what kind of % they are throwing it and now early in the game (before they are completely loose) they are throwing them. I don't think anyone knows very much about what kind of impact these things have in any reliable way, but they are all things I can believe we might one day realize were making a difference.

They have also starting doing bio-mechanics, and you never know - if a computer model is faulty or flawed they may be advising guys into potentially destructive mechanics. It's has to be harder to validate computer models against human physiology than against mechanical systems, as absolute accuracy is much harder to come by for the functional dimensions of a human joint than a manufactured bearing.

Edited August 20, 2022 by gehringer_2

[Tigermojo]

Does Fetter have any medical training at all? Wouldn't it be the training staffs job to monitor those types of issues?

[gehringer_2]

10 minutes ago, Tigermojo said:

Does Fetter have any medical training at all? Wouldn't it be the training staffs job to monitor those types of issues?

Good question. So the coach looks at the rapsodo output and says, "when you put your fingers here you get 150 more rpm. Does anyone then model what that just did to arm stress? Does anyone even have tech good enough to do that reliably?  There are no free lunches in physics. From Newton on down it's still 'every action has an equal and opposite reaction.' If you are teaching guys to put more torque on the ball, you are teaching them to put more stress on their arm.

To my mind that is the big difference with the fast ball. The spin on a fastball is not induced by any secondary torques on the arm, it is the natural result of the primary throwing motion. But as soon as you start putting cross rotation on the ball, you have to do that by inducing a secondary rotation at the elbow or to some degree the wrist.

Edited August 20, 2022 by gehringer_2

[gehringer_2]

P.S. Jobe should be a good test case. How long can his elbow survive spinning a slider 3000 rpm? If his elbow survives what he is doing, then all you can say is that human physiology is just too variable on what effects it to make any rules. If his fries his UCL do we call it predictable?

Edited August 20, 2022 by gehringer_2

[Tigermojo]

3 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Good question. So the coach looks at the rapsodo output and says, "when you put your fingers here you get 150 more rpm. Does anyone then model what that just did to arm stress? Does anyone even have tech good enough to do that reliably?  There are no free lunches in physics. From Newton on down it's still 'every action has an equal and opposite reaction.' If you are teaching guys to put more torque on the ball, you are teaching them to put more stress on their arm.

I guess if he's making changes but not informing the trainers about them, then Fetters would be culpable if those changes lead to injury. You would think before any changes are even suggested, you would want to consult with the training staff first though. We have no way of knowing the process as fans but someone in charge should be looking for concrete answers to the issues ailing this team. They haven't affected a few players but a large portion of the roster has failed to hit or been injured. Those issues need to be identified and resolved before next season. In the end, the manager and the GM are the ones who should know those answers.

[gehringer_2]

6 minutes ago, Tigermojo said:

I guess if he's making changes but not informing the trainers about them, then Fetters would be culpable if those changes lead to injury. You would think before any changes are even suggested, you would want to consult with the training staff first though. We have no way of knowing the process as fans but someone in charge should be looking for concrete answers to the issues ailing this team. They haven't affected a few players but a large portion of the roster has failed to hit or been injured. Those issues need to be identified and resolved before next season. In the end, the manager and the GM are the ones who should know those answers.

LOL - maybe the next big competitive advantage will be finding pitchers who can get get batters out with LOW spin breaking balls.

[Tigermojo]

3 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

LOL - maybe the next big competitive advantage will be finding pitchers who can get get batters out with LOW spin breaking balls.

Like Bugs Bunny. They swing three times at the same pitch.

[Edman85]

https://twitter.com/CodyStavenhagen/status/1561021688736890881?t=MmkGpOLJ3AO4n4XzzNgObw&s=19

[buddha]

grossman is 250/351/500 with the braves.

how does coolbaugh still have a job?

[gehringer_2]

11 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

https://twitter.com/CodyStavenhagen/status/1561021688736890881?t=MmkGpOLJ3AO4n4XzzNgObw&s=19

Cody says organization is more important than the coach, but I think he has it at least a bit backwards. If the parent club's hitting coach is not driving the organization on this kind of thing, who can/will? Isn't it his job to be the expert in hitting development tech?

And again, why does Hinch get a pass on this? Coolbaugh works for him and is manifestly not performing. 

The Tigers supposedly already have sophisticated video mechanics analysis equip - do they stow it all away under the bleachers at Joker Marchant for the season when ST ends?

Edited August 20, 2022 by gehringer_2

[Edman85]

12 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Cody says organization is more important than the coach, but I think he has it at least a bit backwards. If the parent club's hitting coach is not driving the organization on this kind of thing, who can/will? Isn't it his job to be the expert in hitting development tech?

And again, why does Hinch get a pass on this? Coolbaugh works for him and is manifestly not performing. 

The Tigers supposedly already have sophisticated video mechanics analysis equip - do they stow it all away under the bleachers at Joker Marchant for the season when ST ends?

 

Was it somebody in here who said their analytics establishment is a giant cluster and a lot of the public comments from Avila and Illitch has been white wash? I forget where I heard that or read it, but it seems to jive.

You can have fancy labs and equipment, but without good data, without good analysis, and without good processes, it may do more harm than good.

[Jim Cowan]

35 minutes ago, buddha said:

grossman is 250/351/500 with the braves.

how does coolbaugh still have a job?

It might be a bit early to declare that Grossman has been cured.  But yes the question remains, how does Coolbaugh still have a job?  Is it still Avila's fault?

[bobrob2004]

17 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

 

Was it somebody in here who said their analytics establishment is a giant cluster and a lot of the public comments from Avila and Illitch has been white wash? I forget where I heard that or read it, but it seems to jive.

You can have fancy labs and equipment, but without good data, without good analysis, and without good processes, it may do more harm than good.

This right here.  You can have all the fancy equipment and up to date stats and data available, but without proper communication from the front office to the hitting coach to the players, it's all useless.  

This is one of the reasons why I want them to do a clean slate.  Fire Hinch and all the coaches and start over.  New GM and front office and new field manager and coaches.  What they have right now isn't working.  

[SoCalTiger]

This is very sad and depressing. Doubt they can ever fix this and it really cast doubt on Hinch for sticking with "Not" Coolbaugh.

[Tiger337]

26 minutes ago, SoCalTiger said:

This is very sad and depressing. Doubt they can ever fix this and it really cast doubt on Hinch for sticking with "Not" Coolbaugh.

UnCoolbaugh

[Tiger337]

Speaking of Baugh, anybody remember when Kenny Baugh was a top 100 prospect?  Prospct lists!

[RandyMarsh]

BTW how exactly does he pronounce his name, is it Cool-baw(rhymes with Paw), Cool-bow(as in 'take a bow'), Cool-Beau or something else? I don't recall ever hearing his name so in my head I always read it as "Cool-baw". 

[casimir]

1 hour ago, Tiger337 said:

Speaking of Baugh, anybody remember when Kenny Baugh was a top 100 prospect?  Prospct lists!

We were all so young and innocent then.

[casimir]

28 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

BTW how exactly does he pronounce his name, is it Cool-baw(rhymes with Paw), Cool-bow(as in 'take a bow'), Cool-Beau or something else? I don't recall ever hearing his name so in my head I always read it as "Cool-baw". 

I pronounce it “cold-bats”.

[oblong]

Wouldn’t it be obvious to anyone to look at an underperforming player’s swing from when they were performing to notice differences?   So that tells me either their analysis is flawed or their communication is flawed… or they are stupid to not even check(which I don’t think is true).   I guess another alternative is the player just not listening at the time.  Let’s see what he’s doing in 3 weeks. 

[RandyMarsh]

1 minute ago, oblong said:

Wouldn’t it be obvious to anyone to look at an underperforming player’s swing from when they were performing to notice differences?   So that tells me either their analysis is flawed or their communication is flawed… or they are stupid to not even check(which I don’t think is true).   I guess another alternative is the player just not listening at the time.  Let’s see what he’s doing in 3 weeks. 

You would think. I know it's not an exact same analogy but as a part time golf instructor who uses things like Trackman and high speed cameras with students my main objective is identifying the problems and fixing them. I'm not going to turn a high handicapper into a PGA Tour Pro but I  use the tech to identify their flaws and correct them. With regular clients who are more highly skilled that come for specific needs/flaws I  find the differences that are causing them and create drills to make sure they fix them. Sometimes despite my best efforts they still struggle but I'm not a world class instructor and I'm not working with world class players like MLB hitting coaches are.

To me if you're an MLB hitting coach you should be one of the top 1% at what you do and you are working with top 1% of players so it should be your job to fix their flaws and maximize their abilites and I just don't think that is the case with Coolbaugh and the Tigers. As bad as they are these guys shouldn't be THIS bad. 

[sabretooth]

16 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

LOL - maybe the next big competitive advantage will be finding pitchers who can get get batters out with LOW spin breaking balls.

In all seriousness, this needs to be explored.  I watched Max Fried take care of a very good ATL lineup throwing a ton of 70s Curveballs (the pitch largely displaced by the hard slider) and 80s changeups.

I also see more top-20 SP throwing effective low 90s sinkers and cutters, which are at least easier on the arm than a low 90s slider or a splitter.

[RandyMarsh]

I think there is something to being able to spin the ball naturally whether it's your hand/finger size or just natural throwing motion vs. forcing it. Verlander was always a high spin guy and didn't have a serious arm injury until he was in his late 30s cause all those things came natural to him. Same with guys like Greinke and Cole.  I'm hoping since Jobe has been a high spin guy since HS that he falls into a similar category.  

Edited August 20, 2022 by RandyMarsh