The Tigers have fired Al Avila

[gehringer_2]

  On 8/27/2022 at 4:38 PM, gehringer_2 said:

the large overhand ...

Expand  

a simpler way to summarize it would be that the moment to produce the spin of a FB originates from the large muscles in your torso and upper arm. The moment to produce the spin of slider has to be imparted by muscles below the elbow. 

[Edman85]

Henning had a name I hadn't seen, didn't uncover in my deep dive, but is followed by the entire Tigers beat on twitter. Cardinals Special Assistant to the GM: Matt Slater.

[chasfh]

  On 9/5/2022 at 1:13 PM, Edman85 said:

Henning had a name I hadn't seen, didn't uncover in my deep dive, but is followed by the entire Tigers beat on twitter. Cardinals Special Assistant to the GM: Matt Slater.

Expand  

His career looks not unlike Al Avila’s: scouting director background, emphasis in St Louis on player procurement, long tenure, zero mention of analytics or decision sciences—e.g., baseball man. His topline resume doesn’t seem to address the Tigers’ most glaring need, which is integrating analytics into performance analysis, biomechanics, and health recovery and maintenance. 

Thank you, pass.

[mtutiger]

I know I ask this a lot, but does Henning have any real insights into the machinations in the org? Even in this article, it reads more like a vehicle to give his personal opinion on certain candidates versus anything containing insight on the Tigers search process.

Chas' comment about Slater and background kinda hints at that... not surprising Henning likes him given similarities to Avila.

Edited September 5, 2022 by mtutiger

[gehringer_2]

  On 9/5/2022 at 1:54 PM, mtutiger said:

I know I ask this a lot, but does Henning have any real insights into the machinations in the org? Even in this article, it reads more like a vehicle to give his personal opinion on certain candidates versus anything containing insight on the Tigers search process.

Chas' comment about Slater and background kinda hints at that... not surprising Henning likes him given similarities to Avila.

Expand  

In all the years of reading Henning, the only column I ever read where he seemed to actually know something that was not easy conventional wisdom that did end up happening what that they were going to move Granderson. But OTOH, by this point you can chalk that up to the stopped clock being right twice a day since we have learned that Lynn is *always* proposing they move their best players for some new pot of gold, even if it's often mythical.

Edited September 5, 2022 by gehringer_2

[Edman85]

  On 9/5/2022 at 1:30 PM, chasfh said:

His career looks not unlike Al Avila’s: scouting director background, emphasis in St Louis on player procurement, long tenure, zero mention of analytics or decision sciences—e.g., baseball man. His topline resume doesn’t seem to address the Tigers’ most glaring need, which is integrating analytics into performance analysis, biomechanics, and health recovery and maintenance. 

Thank you, pass.

Expand  

I would argue that finding talent is a glaring need, and just because two people have a similar resume, doesn't mean they have similar skills. It is clear as an executive, Al Avila was a failure, I'm not so sure we can definitively say that about Slater. Do you think Avila would have been able to work his way up the chain in St. Louis the past 15 years?

We don't need somebody in the GM chair who knows Python, or can do a biomechanics assessment. We need somebody there who can effectively manage the people who can do those things, knows when they are succeeding, and get the different parts of the organization to work together effectively. I'm just not sure you are I is going to be able to assess these candidates without knowing them personally.

And golly gee, as I check Linkedin, there's at least one poster here who does 🙂

[gehringer_2]

  On 9/5/2022 at 2:49 PM, Edman85 said:

I is going to be able to assess these candidates without knowing them personally.

Expand  

Things are not completely hopeless even from this angle. Don't forget, Chris was Mike's right hand for a long time before he passed. He has been moving in baseball management circles for a long time and may well know a good number of people individually well enough to have some impression of them. 

I think we tend to write off C. I. as some kind of super lightweight because the Tigers have not accomplished anything - and he's not the most polished guy in his presentation, but to keep it in perspective, it would seem that the rest of Ilitch empire has been doing well under his management and it's not been an easy time for any business to navigate, so I have to assume he is not any kind of fool even if he is not a Theo Epstein baseball wise.

In short, I don't think C.I. faces any better or worse odds of finding the GM he needs than any other average MLB owner.

Edited September 5, 2022 by gehringer_2

[SoCalTiger]

So who do we all want as our next GM ? I have no clue except hard no on Menzies or anybody in the organization and lean towards someone from a solid team like Dodgers Cardinals Astros Tampa etc. 

But who ?

[bobrob2004]

Quote from Chris Ilitch on 2/24/17 after taking over the Tigers:

  

  Quote

"Al has a great plan. The first part of his plan is really to beef up our personnel in the area of sabermetrics, player development and analytics. And really, his goal is to identify and draft the very best players in the world, and then we need to develop them. He's beefing up our player development area as well as our scouting ranks. I support his approach wholeheartedly.

Expand  

https://www.mlb.com/news/christopher-ilitch-on-detroit-tigers-future-c216939122

[gehringer_2]

  On 9/5/2022 at 4:15 PM, bobrob2004 said:

Quote from Chris Ilitch on 2/24/17 after taking over the Tigers:

  

https://www.mlb.com/news/christopher-ilitch-on-detroit-tigers-future-c216939122

Expand  

there was never anything wrong with Al's stated objectives, it was always his execution, and his trading, that left too much to be desired.

[Edman85]

I got an endorsement of Slater from somebody I know involved with the St. Louis chapter of SABR.

[CMRivdogs]

Just eyeballing from a distant fan's perspective Slater has a decent resume. He's worked with Baltimore, The Dodgers and Cardinals...

https://www.mlb.com/cardinals/team/front-office/matt-slater

  Quote

Prior to joining the Cardinals, Slater served in various management capacities for the Los Angeles Dodgers for nine years, including Director of Scouting Operations, Director of Baseball Operations and Director of Professional Scouting. With the Dodgers, he oversaw scouting operations while also being involved with contract negotiations, arbitration and roster management. He worked with the Baltimore Orioles from 1995-98 as the Administrator of Scouting. Slater got his start in professional baseball with the Milwaukee Brewers when he was 19 years old. Beginning in 1991, he served as the Brewers' Scouting and Player Development Assistant.

Expand  

If nothing else he's worth talking to

[chasfh]

  On 9/5/2022 at 2:49 PM, Edman85 said:

I would argue that finding talent is a glaring need, and just because two people have a similar resume, doesn't mean they have similar skills. It is clear as an executive, Al Avila was a failure, I'm not so sure we can definitively say that about Slater. Do you think Avila would have been able to work his way up the chain in St. Louis the past 15 years?

We don't need somebody in the GM chair who knows Python, or can do a biomechanics assessment. We need somebody there who can effectively manage the people who can do those things, knows when they are succeeding, and get the different parts of the organization to work together effectively. I'm just not sure you are I is going to be able to assess these candidates without knowing them personally.

And golly gee, as I check Linkedin, there's at least one poster here who does 🙂

Expand  

You're right: I don't know anything about Slater, his management style, his relationship to the owner or his front office or the Cardinals manager, or any of it. Frankly, that's a pretty high requirement to hold me to in order for me to post an opinion about it. If that's the bar we're being held to, then heck, might as well just shut down the whole forum right now, because all it is is we members posting opinions about people none of us know personally.

All I know is what I see on his topline resume, which looks very similar to Al Avila's in terms of scouting background, and speaking only for myself and what I would like to see, I don't want anyone whose background is primarily scouting to be the Tigers' next GM. We just had one of those, and I don't care for how it worked out, so I'd like to try a different direction this time. YMMV.

Edited September 5, 2022 by chasfh

[oblong]

I see a cards org with one losing season in 20+ years.  

[mtutiger]

  On 9/5/2022 at 9:37 PM, oblong said:

I see a cards org with one losing season in 20+ years.  

Expand  

I'm mostly surprised that the guy from the Cards that Lynn mentioned wasn't Randy Flores... he has been the name that Cody and others have floated.

[Edman85]

 

His son was on this club team, so they did an interview with him. Late 2016, so likely a bit dated, but gives you an idea of who Matt Slater is.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Edman85

[SoCalTiger]

  On 9/6/2022 at 9:17 PM, Edman85 said:

 

His son was on this club team, so they did an interview with him. Late 2016, so likely a bit dated, but gives you an idea of who Matt Slater is.

Expand  

Thanks for this. "We make value based decisions ". Sounds good.

[Edman85]

  On 9/5/2022 at 9:37 PM, oblong said:

I see a cards org with one losing season in 20+ years.  

Expand  

It is worth pointing out the Cardinals have been on the losing end on some trades of late.

[casimir]

  On 9/8/2022 at 1:14 AM, Edman85 said:

It is worth pointing out the Cardinals have been on the losing end on some trades of late.

Expand  

That's fair.  I would think every GM kicks one once in a while.  It is just a matter of winning more than losing.  Simon for Suarez was brought up recently.  But, hey, the same guy got some good seasons out of Guillen and Peralta, each for not much at all.

[mtutiger]

This may be an overstated factor, but one thing that concerns me about hiring from the Cardinals is that anyone employed there for any length of time hasn't really been part of a team that is currently on the bottom half of the league and been part of rebuilding / retooling them to succeed. After all, it's an org that has had one losing season in the past 20 or so years.

That doesn't mean that they haven't had to retool or adapt - they have, which explains how they have stayed competitive. But while the experiences may not be perfect, and also being a fan and not a baseball insider, on the surface Josh Byrnes and Dana Brown look like two of the better options in my view because of the level of experience that they have and having been involved in taking teams in rebuilding postures and bringing in a  lot of talent to get them out of it. Particularly Brown - no doubt his hands are all over getting them out of the lean years of 2015-16 and into their current state.

[RatkoVarda]

Randomly, I remember when they said we blew it on the Arozarnera trade. Takes a healthy organization to say that

 

 

[chasfh]

  On 9/8/2022 at 3:37 PM, RatkoVarda said:

Randomly, I remember when they said we blew it on the Arozarnera trade. Takes a healthy organization to say that

 

 

Expand  

What, so the great system Slater talked about where they take the analytics and the scouting number and plug it into a spreadsheet to come up with one big number failed them?

Huh.

[RatkoVarda]

the Cards identify and develop a lot of talent, they consistently do so. to me that is the threshold issue. talent acquisition and development.

some of that talent they should not have traded away, or least gotten more in return

the Ozuna and Arozerena trades stand out as huge mistakes, which is going to happen to any club

we have no idea who objected to and who supported any trade they made

[chasfh]

  On 9/8/2022 at 4:10 PM, RatkoVarda said:

the Cards identify and develop a lot of talent, they consistently do so. to me that is the threshold issue. talent acquisition and development.

some of that talent they should not have traded away, or least gotten more in return

the Ozuna and Arozerena trades stand out as huge mistakes, which is going to happen to any club

we have no idea who objected to and who supported any trade they made

Expand  

Sure, and we don't know where Slater fits into that equation. He has a scouts background, like Al, so he may be the scouts advocate, like Al, when it comes to discussing player acquisitions. Slater talked in the video about blending scouts and analysts and boiling it all down to a single number. Al had also talked about taking analytics and scouts reports and boiling it down into one list.

https://www.mlb.com/tigers/news/tigers-blend-analytics-scouting-roster-moves-c261965660

Based on his topline resume and this video, Slater sounds enough like Al that he could slide right into the GM chair and the ship and its crew will keep humming along with minimum disruption. I can envision Sartori and Menzin, both of whom were hired by Al, pulling for his hire as their last best hope to stay aboard.

[RedRamage]

  On 9/5/2022 at 9:37 PM, oblong said:

I see a cards org with one losing season in 20+ years.  

Expand  

But how much of that was because of Slater? Bob Quinn was with the Patriots from 2000-2015, only two losing season during that time.