The Tigers have fired Al Avila

[buddha]

jim leyland had one of the best roatations in baseball stacked full of hall of famers and a lineup of great players in detroit and never won 100 games and never won a world series.

sparky anderson had a stacked team with the tigers full of hall of famers and won once.  with one great season.

you dont win without great players.  and even good managers lose with great players.  but if your players suck, you're going to be bad like the tigers are now and your manager is going to look bad because of it.

unless he just quits like leyland did in colorado.  now that's a great leader.

[gehringer_2]

12 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

What if the analytics staff or pro scouting outfit is a complete cluster and throwing everybody off? I'm not saying it is

Isn't that still the manager's domain? He is the final filter in front of everything the team presents to his players in terms of data and tactics. If they suck, he needed to tell the back office guys to stuff it by now.

Edited August 20, 2022 by gehringer_2

[Edman85]

3 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Isn't that still the manager's domain? He is the final filter in front of everything the team presents to his players in terms of data and tactics. If they suck, he needed to tell the back office guys to stuff it by now.

They all report to Sartori.

[gehringer_2]

11 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

They all report to Sartori.

so you're saying Hinch is being wagged the dog again, but this time by the suits? 

Edited August 20, 2022 by gehringer_2

[Tiger337]

8 minutes ago, buddha said:

jim leyland had one of the best roatations in baseball stacked full of hall of famers and a lineup of great players in detroit and never won 100 games and never won a world series.

sparky anderson had a stacked team with the tigers full of hall of famers and won once.  with one great season.

you dont win without great players.  and even good managers lose with great players.  but if your players suck, you're going to be bad like the tigers are now and your manager is going to look bad because of it.

unless he just quits like leyland did in colorado.  now that's a great leader.

Leyland's teams had bad bullpens every year.  It's hard to win 100 games when your team has any glaring weakness.  

Anderson won 100 games four times and 98 or more games 7 times with stacked Reds and Tigers teams.  In 1989, his team lost 103 games because they had no talent.  It's all about the players.  

 

 

 

[Tiger337]

1 minute ago, gehringer_2 said:

so you're saying Hinch is being wagged the dog again, but this time by the suits?.......

Maybe AJ needs to find his balls!

[Edman85]

3 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Leyland's teams had bad bullpens every year.  It's hard to win 100 games when your team has any glaring weakness.  

Anderson won 100 games four times and 98 or more games 7 times with stacked Reds and Tigers teams.  In 1989, his team lost 103 games because they had no talent.  It's all about the players.  

 

 

 

I wonder how much of those bad bullpens was bad defense stretching the pitching thin.

[Tiger337]

Just now, Edman85 said:

I wonder how much of those bad bullpens was bad defense stretching the pitching thin.

I think defense has always been underrated by fans because there is still no really reliable way to measure it.   

[sabretooth]

47 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

Devil's advocate: without being on the inside, we can't say that the hitting implosion is Coolbaugh's fault.

I agree 100% that we cannot know one way or another unless we are on the inside.

However with such extreme circumstances as these, even given the known external factors like the baseball, and the NL to AL switch for Baez and Tucker, its still reasonable to speculate, I'm guessing you agree.

[Tiger337]

53 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

Devil's advocate: without being on the inside, we can't say that the hitting implosion is Coolbaugh's fault.

No, we can't.  But many of the same fans blaming Coolbaugh and Avila are assuming that Hinch is blameless.  He may very well be blameless. but we don't know that.  

[Jim Cowan]

2 hours ago, gkelly said:

I am curious how people view Sparky Anderson around here.  I know there is some sentiment that anyone could have won with the Big Red Machine, even though winning the WS is really, really tough.  In Detroit, do people think he is an underachiever who could only take his stacked team to the playoffs 2x?  I was pretty young in the 80s, so I don't have much of an opinion.

My opinion is that in a 5 year window with a loaded team he only made it to the world series once, and someone else brought up Roger Craig who was pretty important.  A big factor was inconsistency - players would have good years, and then bad years.  The exception was Gibson who was a metronome - 27 home runs, 29 steals, .840 OPS.

[buddha]

12 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Leyland's teams had bad bullpens every year.  It's hard to win 100 games when your team has any glaring weakness.  

Anderson won 100 games four times and 98 or more games 7 times with stacked Reds and Tigers teams.  In 1989, his team lost 103 games because they had no talent.  It's all about the players.  

 

 

 

the tigers had a really good bullpen in 2006.

[sabretooth]

8 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Leyland's teams had bad bullpens every year.  It's hard to win 100 games when your team has any glaring weakness. 

Other than 2006, Leylands bullpens werent great but they werent bad either.  They were middle of the pack.

8 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Anderson won 100 games four times and 98 or more games 7 times with stacked Reds and Tigers teams.  In 1989, his team lost 103 games because they had no talent.  It's all about the players.  

The Manager cannot win with crap but he can make a major difference with how he uses what is on the roster and in the system and how he works with the FO to align pieces.  2006 and 2021 are examples of this.  2022 is also an example of the limits of this when every pitcher gets injured and every hitter falls into a hole performance wise.

I realize you and I arent going to agree on this.

[Edman85]

5 minutes ago, buddha said:

the tigers had a really good bullpen in 2006.

And a pretty good defense that year. I remember Leyland saying often that bullpen was good because he got to use them when he wanted.

[sabretooth]

3 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

No, we can't.  But many of the same fans blaming Coolbaugh and Avila are assuming that Hinch is blameless.  He may very well be blameless. but we don't know that.  

I dont know about others...I have been an AJ supporter, but I have been open minded to his potential culpability WRT to keeping Coolbaugh and his possible contributions to the hitting malaise, and possibly the mishandling of pitcher health by AJ and Fetters, as much as I admire the pitching outcomes despite the utter injury depletion of the ranks.

[sabretooth]

Just now, Edman85 said:

And a pretty good defense that year. I remember Leyland saying often that bullpen was good because he got to use them when he wanted.

Yep.  IIRC he said that he had a say in Zooms transition to the BP.

[buddha]

aj is not the problem, imo.  however, if a new gm wanted to come in and clean house and bring in his own people, i'd be fine with it.

the team has regressed so badly this year that no one in management should be safe.

[sabretooth]

7 minutes ago, buddha said:

the tigers had a really good bullpen in 2006.

IIRC it was the best in baseball that year.

[sabretooth]

Just now, buddha said:

aj is not the problem, imo.  however, if a new gm wanted to come in and clean house and bring in his own people, i'd be fine with it.

the team has regressed so badly this year that no one in management should be safe.

I very reluctantly agree, but I would prefer to see AJ and Fetters stay and see what they could do with a good GM.

[buddha]

Just now, sabretooth said:

I very reluctantly agree, but I would prefer to see AJ and Fetters stay and see what they could do with a good GM.

me too.

although i do wonder if fetters has anything to do with the rash of injuries to the pitching staff.

[sabretooth]

10 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

My opinion is that in a 5 year window with a loaded team he only made it to the world series once, and someone else brought up Roger Craig who was pretty important.  A big factor was inconsistency - players would have good years, and then bad years.  The exception was Gibson who was a metronome - 27 home runs, 29 steals, .840 OPS.

Trammell was injured a fair amount and that hurt them a lot.

They did a good job replacing starting pitchers like Wilcox, Rozema, and Juan B with Terrell and Tanana.

But nothing could ever repeat the incredible bullpen from 1984.  Willie and Lopez alone combined for 250 lights out innings.

[sabretooth]

5 minutes ago, buddha said:

me too.

although i do wonder if fetters has anything to do with the rash of injuries to the pitching staff.

could be

[Jim Cowan]

I can't see how a guy whose title is "hitting coach" escapes the blame for this while "some kid from Princeton" (some old writer said that) is held accountable.

[sabretooth]

I could be wrong but I dont think Ive heard anyone suggest firing Fetters while keeping AJ.

[Jim Cowan]

6 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

I could be wrong but I dont think Ive heard anyone suggest firing Fetters while keeping AJ.

You aren't wrong.  But there is some tarnish on Fetters' tiara lately with the nonstop parade of arm injuries.