The Tigers have fired Al Avila

[RatkoVarda]

30 minutes ago, John_Brian_K said:

Hard to tell IMO.  It may be a little of both.  For some reason I think it highly unlikely Al would trade JV without talking to the boss first, but maybe Chris gave him carte blanche....which is what a good owner does IMO, but looks like they had the wrong guy making all the wrong moves.

Did Al really just trade JV without consulting the owner?  I mean, JHC.  Miggy and JV...those were 2 guys who were going to hit HUGE milestones in the next few years...who were the best at their positions.  I was never in favor of trading either guy.  I get giving the gm full control, but you would think Chris would also say something like "if you are thinking about trading either of these guys let me know first."  They sold tickets at the LEAST.

Something just does not smell right.

We know Ilitch was consulted because the Tigers threw in $16M. that simply does not happen without Ilitch's approval. While he can ask Avila to explain the logic behind trading JV, not sure how Ilitch can really perform any due diligence on the trade otherwise. he needs to be comfortable with Avila's explanation for why acquiring these 3 players for a HOF pitcher makes sense. to me Ilitch was saying it was a baseball move by a GM - not a contract clearing move by an owner; perhaps that is a more generous explanation than he deserves

[ewsieg]

7 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

Will Chris Ilitch eat 3 years of Hinch's contract?  I don't think so.  So, the new GM doesn't get to pick his own manager.  That's an obstacle.  Ilitch must be fuming about letting Avila offer a 5 year contract to a guy that would otherwise have been unemployed, but it's his own fault.

Remember, Chris Ilitch has no say in what happens, he just hires the GM. 

[buddha]

51 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

But those guys weren't the new Lou Whitaker and Lance Parrish.  

i bet someone thought they were in 1998.

[RandyMarsh]

My teenage self did think Juan Encarnacion was going to be Andruw Jones or Gary Sheffield back in 1999.

[casimir]

I hope the new GM is nicknamed "Doc" and has experience with a flux capacitor.

[Longgone]

1 hour ago, John_Brian_K said:

Hard to tell IMO.  It may be a little of both.  For some reason I think it highly unlikely Al would trade JV without talking to the boss first, but maybe Chris gave him carte blanche....which is what a good owner does IMO, but looks like they had the wrong guy making all the wrong moves.

Did Al really just trade JV without consulting the owner?  I mean, JHC.  Miggy and JV...those were 2 guys who were going to hit HUGE milestones in the next few years...who were the best at their positions.  I was never in favor of trading either guy.  I get giving the gm full control, but you would think Chris would also say something like "if you are thinking about trading either of these guys let me know first."  They sold tickets at the LEAST.

Something just does not smell right.

There is no question he signed off on the deal, that doesn't mean it was his idea, however.

[Stanley70]

Trading Verlander and JD was the correct move. The team needed more young talent and those guys were probably not going to want to resign here anyways. Not netting a single major league player in those deals is the problem.

Milwaukee just traded Hader before he hit free agency and got a decent package of players back. The next GM we get in here will have to have a vision for how he intends to manage the payroll and keep us competitive, avoiding long term droughts like we are in now. Unless Ilitch is going to green light a top 5 payroll again you can't sit passively by like Al was doing.  Getting nothing for Fulmer when he could have brought in a couple of top prospects was probably his worst mistake IMO. Player development of course is at the top of the list for managing payroll.

[sabretooth]

14 hours ago, Longgone said:

If Epstein was at all interested in being a GM again, he'd already be one. There's a reason he moved on.

I think the chances are very slim.  But it seriously is the only move that would give me any serious hope that we wont suck for another 3-5 years at minimum.

Buddha, whose opinion I respect a lot, touts the Oriole model as superior.  If thats the model, we are likely looking at probably 5 years of additional suckitude with further promises of "wait a few years".

We were sold a lemon on the last rebuild.  No more f'ng rebuilds.  I realize that this organization sucks and we dont have a winning roster, but history proves that you can get a good thing rolling within a year or two if you are willing to do what it takes.

Getting the best turnaround guy available would be evidence that Chris is serious about showing evidence of on field progress to winning in a couple of years, maybe less of we are lucky, maybe more if we are not, but no rebuilds.

Getting any other external candidate ***to me*** = rebuild (no thanks), and Menzin or Chadd wouldnt get hired at this point to run a AAA club.

[1984Echoes]

1 hour ago, mtutiger said:

... In general, I think Tiger fans have a more negative view of the state of this org than people nationally do. Not that national folks think this org is in great shape (obviously not if the GM is being fired), but rather that there tends to be a little more perspective when comparing against all 30 teams.

Except for me!!!

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, John_Brian_K said:

I am in favor of telling the truth and let things fall where they may.  Not a fan of politic-ing or double speak.  I favor this in ALL areas of life, even business.

If a businessman is always going to speak his mind and never put a filter on, that may feel good, but that’s also going to burn the occasional bridge. To some that’s an acceptable tradeoff. To others it’s a recurring surprise they can’t figure out. 

[kdog]

Epstein wants equity in the team to take a baseball job. I doubt that happens.

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, 1776 said:

For the past several years now I have firmly believed that Avila thought he could draft this team into playoff contention without having to be active in the trade market. I think on the way out the door he still believed that. I think he knew, better than anyone else, that he would be on the losing end more often than not in straight up deals with other GMs across the league. With that mindset, he stood pat.

Which means he was never suited for the job of major league GM. 

[Tigermojo]

1 hour ago, Jim Cowan said:

Will Chris Ilitch eat 3 years of Hinch's contract?  I don't think so.  So, the new GM doesn't get to pick his own manager.  That's an obstacle.  Ilitch must be fuming about letting Avila offer a 5 year contract to a guy that would otherwise have been unemployed, but it's his own fault.

I think it will be someone Hinch has worked with before.

[chasfh]

36 minutes ago, Longgone said:

There is no question he signed off on the deal, that doesn't mean it was his idea, however.

He as the owner is supposed to accept final responsibility for the moves which he surely had to approve, rather than throw up his hands as say hey, it wasnt me, it’s a no my job. 

[John_Brian_K]

9 minutes ago, chasfh said:

If a businessman is always going to speak his mind and never put a filter on, that may feel good, but that’s also going to burn the occasional bridge. To some that’s an acceptable tradeoff. To others it’s a recurring surprise they can’t figure out. 

It is not like Chris has press conferences every week....he talks once every couple years and just tells it like it is then I am 100% fine with that.

[chasfh]

18 minutes ago, Stanley70 said:

Trading Verlander and JD was the correct move. The team needed more young talent and those guys were probably not going to want to resign here anyways. Not netting a single major league player in those deals is the problem.

Milwaukee just traded Hader before he hit free agency and got a decent package of players back. The next GM we get in here will have to have a vision for how he intends to manage the payroll and keep us competitive, avoiding long term droughts like we are in now. Unless Ilitch is going to green light a top 5 payroll again you can't sit passively by like Al was doing.  Getting nothing for Fulmer when he could have brought in a couple of top prospects was probably his worst mistake IMO. Player development of course is at the top of the list for managing payroll.

Perhaps the average GM could have unlocked a couple of top prospects for Fulmer a couple years ago, but Al could not have, because as we have long suspected and now know for certain, that ability was always beyond his skill set. 

[kdog]

Ilitch signed off on the Verlander deal. He paid down like half his frigging salary!

[oblong]

Regarding the trades.... it's also possible teams got wise and are reluctant to move prospects for middle of the run players.  I'm saying that without knowing much about the deals that did go on at the deadline.

Seems to me that our "pieces" are the kinds of players good teams have a lot of and can do on their own without risking a prospect.

 

[mtutiger]

22 minutes ago, Tigermojo said:

I think it will be someone Hinch has worked with before.

We've come a long way from the "Hinch is gonna opt out" days, haven't we?

In all seriousness, I do think it's a positive that Hinch will have a role in this... he shouldn't have the only say in it, of course, but he's been overall a positive for the franchise and it signals that, while significant changes may be made, it may not be a total teardown either.

[Edman85]

Hey look, baseball front office database

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dasp3eeIDl-BGt57LbGRkmBRNwq8lV0nQJgcgdZYoa0/edit#gid=0

 

Oh, I found the 2022 Tigers Media Guide. You can get a good idea of the hierarchy as of the pre-season.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EzGnip9jU2Om4hTJFPQD1ilYvq1E2djY/view?usp=sharing

[chasfh]

2 hours ago, Jim Cowan said:

Will Chris Ilitch eat 3 years of Hinch's contract?  I don't think so.  So, the new GM doesn't get to pick his own manager.  That's an obstacle.  Ilitch must be fuming about letting Avila offer a 5 year contract to a guy that would otherwise have been unemployed, but it's his own fault.

You may be assuming that Chris Ilitch despises A.J. Hinch as much as you do, but that may not be the case. Heck, there’s still a chance Baby Doc makes A.J. his new GM!

[Longgone]

1 hour ago, sabretooth said:

I think the chances are very slim.  But it seriously is the only move that would give me any serious hope that we wont suck for another 3-5 years at minimum.

Buddha, whose opinion I respect a lot, touts the Oriole model as superior.  If thats the model, we are likely looking at probably 5 years of additional suckitude with further promises of "wait a few years".

We were sold a lemon on the last rebuild.  No more f'ng rebuilds.  I realize that this organization sucks and we dont have a winning roster, but history proves that you can get a good thing rolling within a year or two if you are willing to do what it takes.

Getting the best turnaround guy available would be evidence that Chris is serious about showing evidence of on field progress to winning in a couple of years, maybe less of we are lucky, maybe more if we are not, but no rebuilds.

Getting any other external candidate ***to me*** = rebuild (no thanks), and Menzin or Chadd wouldnt get hired at this point to run a AAA club.

I'd be happy with stability and moving in the right direction.

[Longgone]

49 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Perhaps the average GM could have unlocked a couple of top prospects for Fulmer a couple years ago, but Al could not have, because as we have long suspected and now know for certain, that ability was always beyond his skill set. 

Nope, he was coming off serious injury, he was probably at peak value, post injury, this year.

[Jim Cowan]

1 hour ago, RandyMarsh said:

My teenage self did think Juan Encarnacion was going to be Andruw Jones or Gary Sheffield back in 1999.

I was hoping for Clemente.

[buddha]

the tigers did not have to trade verlander or martinez.  verlander was under contract for two more years.

the real criticism i have is not that they traded them, but the very poor return they got, especially for martinez.  one can argue that the verlander return was decent on paper, but the martinez trade was abysmal and universally panned at the time.  you dont have to trade him just to trade him.  they chose to take that return because avila considered it a good return.

the cubs just chose to let wilson contreras walk foe a draft pick rather than take what was offered.  is that better than dealing martinez for junk rather than keeping him?  dunno.