2022 Michigan Football

[MichiganCardinal]

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

Having an SO that did 30 yr there, I can say my impression is that the overall tenor of the place is an advanced but still conservative practice attitude. Yes it is a great medical research institution at the cutting edge, but patients with everyday issues are not viewed as potential experimental subjects.

 

53 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

Michigan Medicine is at such a high standard that their doctors should not be questioned is the same mindset that allowed Dr. Anderson to operate for more than 4 decades.     

These are both very fair criticisms. I’ve never had a poor experience with them, but I also don’t have 30 years of experience with them.

I meant more so that I find it very doubtful any doctor with MM would have completely neglected their duties in a way that seems to be being implied. This wasn’t some back-alley doctor.

I’m hesitant to speculate… but I think it’s possible they misdiagnosed All’s injury in February, and then being it was in the Spring had very little interaction with him between February and June, when it was diagnosed properly. If that was the case, All has every right to be upset and I can’t blame him for transferring. It’s not as if we should be firing doctors though. Practicing medicine is hard.

[Toddwert]

17 hours ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Do we know why he left? 

from what I've heard it was a diiference of  opinion on some questionable medical treatment in a strip mall in Florida

[sagnam]

1 hour ago, Hongbit said:

Michigan Medicine is at such a high standard that their doctors should not be questioned is the same mindset that allowed Dr. Anderson to operate for more than 4 decades.     

If you are comfortable questioning them then you should also be comfortable allowing them to answer.

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, MichiganCardinal said:

 

These are both very fair criticisms. I’ve never had a poor experience with them, but I also don’t have 30 years of experience with them.

I meant more so that I find it very doubtful any doctor with MM would have completely neglected their duties in a way that seems to be being implied. This wasn’t some back-alley doctor.

I’m hesitant to speculate… but I think it’s possible they misdiagnosed All’s injury in February, and then being it was in the Spring had very little interaction with him between February and June, when it was diagnosed properly. If that was the case, All has every right to be upset and I can’t blame him for transferring. It’s not as if we should be firing doctors though. Practicing medicine is hard.

Disc replacement. That explains a lot. Disc replacement is still controversial. There was a lot heat generated last year over an NHL player considering one, though his name escapes me.

I find it completely believeable that no-one at UM wanted to do one. There isn't necessarily any issue of competence or care here, it's simply a techinical practice difference of opinion. I can easily see a conservative doc telling a 19 yr old that the risk of cutting edge spinal surgery wasn't justified *in his view* if the deficit is such that he could have a perfectly normal life without the surgery but also without football. That sets up an unresolvable difference of opinion. In that case if the young man takes the agency to go somewhere else that is the correct answer. He gets what he wants and the Docs at both ends are comfortable with their decisions. Maybe nothing to see here really and nothing wrong with the outcome even if some set of fans would have rathered a different one and some folks feel the need to justify their honest decisions by belittling those of others.

C'est la vie.

Edited December 17, 2022 by gehringer_2

[Hongbit]

Interesting pro football game that just ended.   Safe to say Indianapolis will be looking for a new coach.  

[Deleterious]

 

[Hongbit]

3 minutes ago, Deleterious said:

 

Seems like a no brainer.  He’s going to make more money in NIL next year at UM than he would as a day 3 draft pick.  He will also have a legit chance at the Heisman, which creates lifetime earning potential.   

[buddha]

corum should go pro.

one michigan doctor 40 years ago goosing athletes means little to how All was treated (or not treated).

we have many cases in florida.  unnecessary surgeries made for the doctor (and lawyer) to make money are very prevalent in florida.  the real needs of the patient are often put on the backburner.  is that what happened here?  dunno.  but the motivations of doctors to get paid is often more important than the actual needs of their patients.

[gehringer_2]

20 minutes ago, buddha said:

corum should go pro.

one michigan doctor 40 years ago goosing athletes means little to how All was treated (or not treated).

we have many cases in florida.  unnecessary surgeries made for the doctor (and lawyer) to make money are very prevalent in florida.  the real needs of the patient are often put on the backburner.  is that what happened here?  dunno.  but the motivations of doctors to get paid is often more important than the actual needs of their patients.

Could well be. And if you have a practice pushing a new technique that they are in the forefront of, there is prestige and money and possible position and maybe even better outcomes for patients, to be gained by expanding its use. Maybe it's a great therapy, maybe it's unecessary in 50% of the cases. The point is that at the front end of any new technique no-one really knows because the 'science' or maybe here 'technology' is a more appropriate word, is unproven. 20 yrs ago vertabral fusion was the big thing for disc issues, today my sense is that the consensus is that most of them should never have been done. So far this reads to me like so much of the COVID debate we've been through, where people line up around issues as though certainty is obvious when it isn't even possible.  

A kid (and family!) who sees their potential payday theatened by a reluctant doc (who maybe isn't much of a sports fan anyway - he was too busy in Med school to be interested....) might be pretty unhappy. But that has little to do with answering the question of whether or which doctors were or weren't acting in good faith.

Edited December 18, 2022 by gehringer_2

[buddha]

13 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Could well be. And if you have a practice pushing a new technique that they are in the forefront of, there is prestige and money and possible position and maybe even better outcomes for patients, to be gained by expanding its use. Maybe it's a great therapy, maybe it's unecessary in 50% of the cases. The point is that at the front end of any new technique no-one really knows because the 'science' or maybe here 'technology' is a more appropriate word, is unproven. 20 yrs ago vertabral fusion was the big thing for disc issues, today my sense is that the consensus is that most of them should never have been done. So far this reads to me like so much of the COVID debate we've been through, where people line up around issues as though certainty is obvious when it isn't even possible.  

A kid (and family!) who sees their potential payday theatened by a reluctant doc (who maybe isn't much of a sports fan anyway - he was too busy in Med school to be interested....) might be pretty unhappy. But that has little to do with answering the question of whether or which doctors were or weren't acting in good faith.

non invasive back surgery has been a boon for doctor's pocketbooks and horrible for their patients.

i have no idea what All went through.  however, given that he got the surgery in florida against the wishes of michigan medical personnel leads me to believe he made a rash decision.  always error on the side of caution when it comes to back surgery.

[gehringer_2]

15 minutes ago, buddha said:

non invasive back surgery has been a boon for doctor's pocketbooks and horrible for their patients.

i have no idea what All went through.  however, given that he got the surgery in florida against the wishes of michigan medical personnel leads me to believe he made a rash decision.  always error on the side of caution when it comes to back surgery.

It was Jack Eichel of the Vegas Knights who had disc replacement done last year over the objection of his team doctors. He's at 29 pts playing 18min/game this season so it apparently worked for him. There was a lot published about it at the time and I read a bunch of the articles. It was was no laproscopic clip and stitch. The surgery sounded incredibly complex - not for the faint of heart.

IIRC the  local interest connection was that people were pushing Eichel as a Wings trade target.

Edited December 18, 2022 by gehringer_2

[romad1]

 

Wow

[romad1]

Michigan is kicking ass with the portal and with recruiting this week.  My gott in himmel. 

[buddha]

On 12/18/2022 at 8:54 PM, romad1 said:

Michigan is kicking ass with the portal and with recruiting this week.  My gott in himmel. 

michigan has been so good this year with a 5* qb, a 5* qb, and a top 4* rb.  when they get those guys in this recruiting class, let me know.

mopping up on "sleeper" 3*s and low 4* decommits doesnt move the needle for this team.  bringing in portal guys to cover up recruiting deficiencies and portal transfers is one thing, but expecting to be at the top of the big ten moving forward?  nyah bro.  you need 5* talent at the key positions if you want to play with the big boys.  jj and edwards give you that.  and you need to replenish those stocks asap.

btw, dante moore left oregon before playing a down.  off to ucla to collect their nil money before moving on.

[RandyMarsh]

What if Coach Prime got Arch to flip? That would be crazy, our luck though is that he's probably flipping to OSU. 

[Hongbit]

On 12/19/2022 at 10:29 PM, buddha said:

btw, dante moore left oregon before playing a down.  off to ucla to collect their nil money before moving on.

Surprised that UM or MSU didn’t get more involved here when Oregon started to fall apart.    Also saw that Graham Mertz is moving to Florida from Wisconsin and ND.  Can’t figure out why he keeps getting these good options.  

[Hongbit]

9 hours ago, RandyMarsh said:

What if Coach Prime got Arch to flip? That would be crazy, our luck though is that he's probably flipping to OSU. 

Apparently this was a guy that flipped from Baylor to Oregon. 

[buddha]

21 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

Surprised that UM or MSU didn’t get more involved here when Oregon started to fall apart.    Also saw that Graham Mertz is moving to Florida from Wisconsin and ND.  Can’t figure out why he keeps getting these good options.  

he wasnt interested in michigan.  i dont think they even bothered this time after spending all of their time recruiting him last year.  big miss.

[Hongbit]

It’s a bigger miss for Mel.   Ideally, both teams want to keep the top rated player from the state at home.   They will probably get another shot at him in a year or two via portal. 

[romad1]

On 12/19/2022 at 10:29 PM, buddha said:

michigan has been so good this year with a 5* qb, a 5* qb, and a top 4* rb.  when they get those guys in this recruiting class, let me know.

mopping up on "sleeper" 3*s and low 4* decommits doesnt move the needle for this team.  bringing in portal guys to cover up recruiting deficiencies and portal transfers is one thing, but expecting to be at the top of the big ten moving forward?  nyah bro.  you need 5* talent at the key positions if you want to play with the big boys.  jj and edwards give you that.  and you need to replenish those stocks asap.

btw, dante moore left oregon before playing a down.  off to ucla to collect their nil money before moving on.

I have the same concern about lack of 5s.   We may have reached our ceiling of playing in the CFB and being destroyed by the 5s who play for whatever school in the SEC did it right this cycle.

[romad1]

I would think that MSU could scoop up the low-character guys by emphasizing their traditions in that regard.

Perhaps that's a sad indictment of our education system not teaching the history of the Izzo/Dantonio Michigan Hate Machine.

Edited December 21, 2022 by romad1

[romad1]

4 minutes ago, romad1 said:

I have the same concern about lack of 5s.   We may have reached our ceiling of playing in the CFB and being destroyed by the 5s who play for whatever school in the SEC did it right this cycle.

Also,... did you mean 5* OL in your discussion of this year's team?  I think Olu qualifies unless he doesn't.

[buddha]

10 minutes ago, romad1 said:

Also,... did you mean 5* OL in your discussion of this year's team?  I think Olu qualifies unless he doesn't.

i dont think you need 5* olinemen.  those guys take a long time to develop and its just as much about coaching and talent identification than high school attributes.  michigan gets its fair share of 4* olinemen and that's enough.  the 5* guys tend to be offensive tackles.  you can develop those guys.

but speed is speed and a qb is a qb.  michigan needs SOME 5* guys to compete with georgia/bama/ohio state's of the world, imo.

this class is bad.  however, michigan may be demonstrating the new world of college football by using the portal to cover up for the deficiencies of that class.  they got 3 offensive linemen, a starting linebacker, a starting defensive end, and needed tight end depth.

the future of college football recruiting might not be signing a ton of 5* high school kids and then watching half of them leave within 2 years, but rather raiding other schools for those kids.  maybe.

with that said, michigan needs a class next year that replaces their base of talent.  next year's michigan team is looking very strong yet again, but it will be the last year for jj (most likely) and edwards (most definitely).  i would like them to have a couple guys in the hopper to replace them.

all THAT said, signing day is here and not everyone will commit.  harbor is still out there and you never know if they can flip someone on signing day.  that would go a long way to making this class acceptable by michigan standards.  without them?  its well below par.

[MichiganCardinal]

41 minutes ago, buddha said:

he wasnt interested in michigan.  i dont think they even bothered this time after spending all of their time recruiting him last year.  big miss.

I don't know if it's fair to characterize it as a big miss if he never expressed interest in the program. Maybe he just liked the west coast more? Wanted to get out of B1G country? Was enticed by the possibility of joining the B1G, but wanted to play in better weather year-round? Had family or community reasons to go there, or not stay here? Plenty of possibilities outside of Michigan dropping the ball.

You're not going to get every 5* athlete, even those in your own state. It's not as if he decided to go to MSU (who badly sought after him both originally and to flip) over Michigan. That would be a big miss. I would also characterize someone like CJ Carr as a miss, who went to a nearby rival despite huge connections to the program.

That said, I agree that you have to get some high 4s and 5s to sustain this success. It's not all coaching. JJ was a 5, Edwards and Corum were high 4s. You don't go 13-0 without that trio, plus the nearly exclusively four-star offensive line.

Not to make excuses, but I think this cycle was significantly impacted by the turnover in coaching staff that came from the surprise run last year, combined with Harbaugh's flirtations with the NFL, as well as Michigan's delay in joining the 21st Century of NIL money. A lot of that will be better this coming cycle. We already see that there has been an adaptation to at least some degree in the transfer portal.

Alabama can recruit how Alabama does not because it's Nick Saban or Bill O'Brien in the living room (though I am sure that they are good at what they do), but because they win. There is a virtual guarantee that if I'm a recruit who goes to Alabama, I'm going to win a lot of games and seriously compete for a National Championship... Michigan is not Alabama, but when you go 25-2 over two years, and win back-to-back conference titles, and make back-to-back appearances in the playoff, you're going to turn some heads. Kids want to win wherever they go. And it's getting to the point where Harbaugh can point to the record and tell these kids, "come here if you want to win"... That, along with being on a more even footing with NIL, is what it will take to win over the 5-stars that Ohio State has been grabbing for the last two decades.

[buddha]

1 minute ago, MichiganCardinal said:

I don't know if it's fair to characterize it as a big miss if he never expressed interest in the program. Maybe he just liked the west coast more? Wanted to get out of B1G country? Was enticed by the possibility of joining the B1G, but wanted to play in better weather year-round? Had family or community reasons to go there, or not stay here? Plenty of possibilities outside of Michigan dropping the ball.

You're not going to get every 5* athlete, even those in your own state. It's not as if he decided to go to MSU (who badly sought after him both originally and to flip) over Michigan. That would be a big miss. I would also characterize someone like CJ Carr as a miss, who went to a nearby rival despite huge connections to the program.

That said, I agree that you have to get some high 4s and 5s to sustain this success. It's not all coaching. JJ was a 5, Edwards and Corum were high 4s. You don't go 13-0 without that trio, plus the nearly exclusively four-star offensive line.

Not to make excuses, but I think this cycle was significantly impacted by the turnover in coaching staff that came from the surprise run last year, combined with Harbaugh's flirtations with the NFL, as well as Michigan's delay in joining the 21st Century of NIL money. A lot of that will be better this coming cycle. We already see that there has been an adaptation to at least some degree in the transfer portal.

Alabama can recruit how Alabama does not because it's Nick Saban or Bill O'Brien in the living room (though I am sure that they are good at what they do), but because they win. There is a virtual guarantee that if I'm a recruit who goes to Alabama, I'm going to win a lot of games and seriously compete for a National Championship... Michigan is not Alabama, but when you go 25-2 over two years, and win back-to-back conference titles, and make back-to-back appearances in the playoff, you're going to turn some heads. Kids want to win wherever they go. And it's getting to the point where Harbaugh can point to the record and tell these kids, "come here if you want to win"... That, along with being on a more even footing with NIL, is what it will take to win over the 5-stars that Ohio State has been grabbing for the last two decades.

its a big miss because they put all of their eggs in this particular basket and didnt recruit any other 5* qb.  and they missed.  now they have nothing behind jj but 3* developmental guys and transfers.