sabretooth Posted August 21, 2022 Share Posted August 21, 2022 11 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said: It has calmed down but for the first year or so there were people dropping palm fronds in front of him on his way into Jerusalem. I did last year but I have since picked them up 😀 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted August 21, 2022 Author Share Posted August 21, 2022 14 minutes ago, sabretooth said: I did last year but I have since picked them up 😀 They are a bit of a trip hazard. But since the Tigers are rarely on base to trip over them,…. ah, never mind. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabretooth Posted August 21, 2022 Share Posted August 21, 2022 I still think it's pretty obvious that AJ and Fetters have done an outstanding job putting together a decent pitching staff with almost nothing to work with this year. It is possible that their handling has contributed to the injury situation but that is speculation that has not been established yet. From where I stand AJ has clearly added major positive value since his acquisition, but I think he has made a mistake by keeping coolbaugh and/or not directing him to use advanced resources effectively. The one thing that I'm going to call bs on is this polarizing approach where Hinch supporters are supposedly stooges, and who allegedly cast blame everybody but Hinch. I have not seen this...MTS seems capable of a balanced perspective without this kind of strawmen construction. For myself, I'm capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time. I have been able to view Hinch as a value added proposition for this club while also remaining objective about his apparent shortcomings and his potential shortcomings. Ive seen this from lots of other folks here too. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted August 21, 2022 Author Share Posted August 21, 2022 4 minutes ago, sabretooth said: I still think it's pretty obvious that AJ and Fetters have done an outstanding job putting together a decent pitching staff with almost nothing to work with this year. It is possible that their handling has contributed to the injury situation but that is speculation that has not been established yet. From where I stand AJ has clearly added major positive value since his acquisition, but I think he has made a mistake by keeping coolbaugh and/or not directing him to use advanced resources effectively. The one thing that I'm going to call bs on is this polarizing approach where Hinch supporters are supposedly stooges, and who allegedly cast blame everybody but Hinch. I have not seen this...MTS seems capable of a balanced perspective without this kind of strawmen construction. For myself, I'm capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time. I have been able to view Hinch as a value added proposition for this club while also remaining objective about his apparent shortcomings and his potential shortcomings. Ive seen this from lots of other folks here too. There’s no argument to be made regarding the handling of the pitching staff. I don’t know what to make of the injuries, but holy moley, what they’ve done with the pitching staff this season would make MacGyver jealous. Given what they’ve accomplished there, maybe they’ve got enough of a grasp of that end to where a capable GM comes in and can move a few arms for MLB ready bats. It’s probably a tall task this off-season given some of the injuries. But some of the arms are young enough, maybe there’s a chance to get a bat or two there, and they can go the free agency route for another bat or two. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted August 21, 2022 Share Posted August 21, 2022 1 hour ago, casimir said: There’s no argument to be made regarding the handling of the pitching staff. I don’t know what to make of the injuries, but holy moley, what they’ve done with the pitching staff this season would make MacGyver jealous. Given what they’ve accomplished there, maybe they’ve got enough of a grasp of that end to where a capable GM comes in and can move a few arms for MLB ready bats. It’s probably a tall task this off-season given some of the injuries. But some of the arms are young enough, maybe there’s a chance to get a bat or two there, and they can go the free agency route for another bat or two. I think that happens in the 2023 offseason not 2022 offseason. A year to reset, to re-evaluate, and to re-establish some value in whatever pitchers can get back, and remain, healthy. Way too much organizational value has been wiped out by this disastrous year of injuries and absent bats to make any worthwhile trades. I don't want to be in a situation where we're making trades "just to make a trade". It's going to take at least next year for the pitching staff to settle back into some semblance of normalcy... Can't evaluate or trade some of those pitchers at least until then... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted August 21, 2022 Share Posted August 21, 2022 2 hours ago, casimir said: There’s no argument to be made regarding the handling of the pitching staff. I don’t know what to make of the injuries, but holy moley, what they’ve done with the pitching staff this season would make MacGyver jealous. Given what they’ve accomplished there, maybe they’ve got enough of a grasp of that end to where a capable GM comes in and can move a few arms for MLB ready bats. It’s probably a tall task this off-season given some of the injuries. But some of the arms are young enough, maybe there’s a chance to get a bat or two there, and they can go the free agency route for another bat or two. If they manage to hire someone even decent, I wouldn't underestimate their ability to find some guys with the assets they have It's hard to see at this moment, but let's see who they hire and what they do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabretooth Posted August 21, 2022 Share Posted August 21, 2022 16 minutes ago, mtutiger said: If they manage to hire someone even decent, I wouldn't underestimate their ability to find some guys with the assets they have It's hard to see at this moment, but let's see who they hire and what they do Yeah, given that we are middle-of-the-pack with 10 pitching WAR with 40 games to go with our top available starting pitcher sitting at about 60 IP so far (even if you add back Skubal's 140 IP that's still amazing)...the pitching outcomes are nothing short of a ****miracle****....maybe it will all flame out by seasons end, but if not, AJ and Fetters deserve commendation for that alone. More to the point, there has got to be some useable/marketable pitching talent in there for a new GM to begin to construct a sustainable situation through trades/development and some savvy FA plug-ins sooner rather than later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted August 21, 2022 Share Posted August 21, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, sabretooth said: The one thing that I'm going to call bs on is this polarizing approach where Hinch supporters are supposedly stooges, and who allegedly cast blame everybody but Hinch. I have not seen this...MTS seems capable of a balanced perspective without this kind of strawmen construction. Maybe not so much this year, but last year lots of people were saying that Hinch had changed the organization from loser to winner. And April didn't count for some reason. It turned out that when players don't perform, the manager doesn't look so great. Same as it always was. Edited August 21, 2022 by Tiger337 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabretooth Posted August 22, 2022 Share Posted August 22, 2022 2 hours ago, Tiger337 said: Maybe not so much this year, but last year lots of people were saying that Hinch had changed the organization from loser to winner. And April didn't count for some reason. It turned out that when players don't perform, the manager doesn't look so great. Same as it always was. I think I would liken it to a race car team, where a particular car always ran in the back of the pack over a number of seasons, and then a new driver had the car up in the middle of the pack heading towards the front of the pack near the end of the season. Then this year the car hit the wall. Was it the drivers fault or the team or the owner or what? Hard to say. In any case if Hinch supporters were or are guilty of being too hopeful or of crediting Hinch too much, it is possible to be bias in the other direction, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted August 22, 2022 Share Posted August 22, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, sabretooth said: I think I would liken it to a race car team, where a particular car always ran in the back of the pack over a number of seasons, and then a new driver had the car up in the middle of the pack heading towards the front of the pack near the end of the season. Then this year the car hit the wall. Was it the drivers fault or the team or the owner or what? Hard to say. In any case if Hinch supporters were or are guilty of being too hopeful or of crediting Hinch too much, it is possible to be bias in the other direction, too. As I said, I am neutral on Hinch. They'll win more games when they have better and healthier players. Edited August 22, 2022 by Tiger337 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted August 22, 2022 Share Posted August 22, 2022 I'm pretty neutral on Hinch as well, we performed above expectations last year while performing below this year, our pitching has performed well above expectations while our offense is well below, it's like in the nearly 2 years he's been here there have been things to really get behind about him and things to blast him over so ultimately it's kinda been a wash. I guess the good news is that you don't hear about any bickering or unhappiness in the clubhouse, it seems like despite the team's struggles everybody is still getting along and on the same page so I think there is something to be said about that for the manager. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabretooth Posted August 22, 2022 Share Posted August 22, 2022 10 hours ago, Tiger337 said: As I said, I am neutral on Hinch. They'll win more games when they have better and healthier players. I was thinking more of the generic "how important is a Manager anyway" debate rather than Hinch in your case. Maybe bias is too loaded a term, but I think it's fair to say that I view the Manager as more important and impactful than you do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabretooth Posted August 22, 2022 Share Posted August 22, 2022 (edited) I was neutral on Hinch to begin with, given his blowup with the Astros cheating scandal, but he made a believer out of me with their marked improvement in 2021 and 2022 with the BP and now the starting pitching, but oy the injury mystery. I think he has really created a stink about himself and Coolbaugh regadring the extremely anemic offense, esp. after the Grossman debacle. The Manager and his staff must be up to speed on the latest techniques, and the Tigers are clearly way behind the curve, so to speak. It seems to be the Tiger way to be behind the curve, and it's embarrassing. The next GM needs to permanently change the way everybody throughout the organization thinks about, analyzes, impacts, and talks about player development and performance, and that needs to start with Hinch. I don't think anyone wants or needs to hear Hinch publicly discuss the particulars of analytics, but I would like to see him at least discuss the subject in a manner that reassures the fans that he and his staff are comfortable and engaged with winning approaches across the board. Edited August 22, 2022 by sabretooth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted August 22, 2022 Share Posted August 22, 2022 19 hours ago, Tiger337 said: Maybe not so much this year, but last year lots of people were saying that Hinch had changed the organization from loser to winner. And April didn't count for some reason. It turned out that when players don't perform, the manager doesn't look so great. Same as it always was. that's a bit of an exaggeration as to what people thought about aj. more posters here skewer aj for the houston thing than laud him for being a good manager. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabretooth Posted August 22, 2022 Share Posted August 22, 2022 It seems to me that as a rule MTS/MTF people have tended to be skeptical of the skills and/or value of management personnel. There has been a countervailing group who voice skepticism of fans perspective (MotownBombers, Shelton chief among them), but not necessarily to defend management, more as a counterpoint. It seems to me that Leyland got a couple of seasons of love around here, then after the disappointments of 2008-2010, a chorus emerged that thought he was either incompetent or overrated or whatever, either because they didnt like his approach, or they are the kinds of fans who like to rip on the Manager, or they feel that fans overrate the impact of Managers, etc. Hinch got about 1 season of love from late May last year to about mid-April this year. I am a little amused by those who demand that MTFers hold Hinch accountable, as if we have some kind of say. Whatever the case may be, I have seen little evidence of starry-eyed self-deception here, just the hope that despite everything else, maybe we have the right guy in the Managers seat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted August 22, 2022 Share Posted August 22, 2022 I don't demand that Hinch be held accountable. I am just having fun at the expense of those who were calling him a genius based on May through September last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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