08/31/2022 7:10 EDT Seattle Mariners at Detroit Tigers

[casimir]

9 hours ago, Edman85 said:

Part of me wonders if Hessman is part of the problem, since he was around with the old regime.

Yes, for all of the grief that Coolbaugh takes, Hessman seems to fly under the radar.  I don't know how much blame either deserves, but its clear something needs to be done.

[Sports_Freak]

How many games have we lost by Hinch using a different pitcher every inning? Keep putting a new pitcher out there until he finds one who finally gives up runs? I would prefer BP arms that can go 2 or 3 innings if they're getting hitters out. Terrible bullpen management.

[cswood]

20 hours ago, Evil Roy Slade said:

If the Tigers win out that will make them 83 and 79. That’s a winning season in my book.

so youre saying theres a chance

[buddha]

2 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

How many games have we lost by Hinch using a different pitcher every inning?

Less than the amount we lose because our players cant hit.

[gehringer_2]

7 minutes ago, buddha said:

Less than the amount we lose because our players cant hit.

He's gotta point there.

[RandyMarsh]

I'm old enough to remember when Lange was viewed as untouchable and somebody we should only trade if we got a Godfather offer. 

[1984Echoes]

Lange...?

Seriously? 

Whoever said he was untouchable?

[1984Echoes]

PS: "Don't want to trade our bullpen guys since they're the only ones doing good" does NOT equal untouchable...

[Dan Gilmore]

I don’t think anyone called him untouchable. There was mention of how good he was pitching and that the team had control over him for years, with a preference to trade off the older guys unless you got a really strong offer. And there was acknowledgment that bullpens are fickle, so it’s hard to assume current success will apply later. 

[RandyMarsh]

I may have been hyperbolic but there was talks(myself included) that he was somebody we should hang on to and not trade unless we were blown away by an offer.  Of course I was kinda being a smart-ass with that post and it was more in jest and how quickly things can change with relievers. 

[mtutiger]

14 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

I may have been hyperbolic but there was talks(myself included) that he was somebody we should hang on to and not trade unless we were blown away by an offer.  Of course I was kinda being a smart-ass with that post and it was more in jest and how quickly things can change with relievers. 

Correct. And I will stand behind what I said at the time about Lange even as he has struggled of late.

[buddha]

its not like youre trading relievers to get a superstar.  you would have dealt them for a guy who might be a reliever in 3 years.  maybe.

and avila was doing the dealing, and that hasnt turned out to be too fruitful.

so why trade them?

[casimir]

20 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

How many games have we lost by Hinch using a different pitcher every inning? Keep putting a new pitcher out there until he finds one who finally gives up runs? I would prefer BP arms that can go 2 or 3 innings if they're getting hitters out. Terrible bullpen management.

 

17 hours ago, buddha said:

Less than the amount we lose because our players cant hit.

Buddha is correct.

However, I understand that today's MLB bullpen usage is too much paint by numbers at times.  Guys need to know their roles, which, OK, how about go stand on that dirt pile, and get the guy with the hitting twig out?  Seems like a pretty simple role.

What gets me is a RP gets brought in, dusts 3 batters on 10 pitches or less, and then another RP comes in the next inning because we have to have 7th inning RPs and 8th inning RPs and 9th inning RPs.  Or the best RP, the closer for most teams, won't be used in the 8th inning vs the 2nd, 3rd, 4th lineup hitters because that pitcher's role is the 9th inning.  Why wouldn't you match up strength vs strength?  You might not get out of the 8th with a lead to use the best RP in the 9th.

But unfortunately RPs are trained to be this for the most part.  Come in, have one inning of all out effort, and call it a night.  Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like its become more about throwing hard than pitching.

[mtutiger]

11 minutes ago, casimir said:

 

Buddha is correct.

However, I understand that today's MLB bullpen usage is too much paint by numbers at times.  Guys need to know their roles, which, OK, how about go stand on that dirt pile, and get the guy with the hitting twig out?  Seems like a pretty simple role.

What gets me is a RP gets brought in, dusts 3 batters on 10 pitches or less, and then another RP comes in the next inning because we have to have 7th inning RPs and 8th inning RPs and 9th inning RPs.  Or the best RP, the closer for most teams, won't be used in the 8th inning vs the 2nd, 3rd, 4th lineup hitters because that pitcher's role is the 9th inning.  Why wouldn't you match up strength vs strength?  You might not get out of the 8th with a lead to use the best RP in the 9th.

But unfortunately RPs are trained to be this for the most part.  Come in, have one inning of all out effort, and call it a night.  Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like its become more about throwing hard than pitching.

Andrew Chafin, in particular, is the one I don't get.... veteran guy who can clearly pitch in tough situations, who can reliably go for an inning or even slighlty more per outing, and who you paid a lot of money in the offseason to pitch.

They've gotten better about using him to his abilities, but early were wayyyy too content with letting him pitch 0.2 innings in too many outings IMO.

[mtutiger]

1 hour ago, buddha said:

its not like youre trading relievers to get a superstar.  you would have dealt them for a guy who might be a reliever in 3 years.  maybe.

and avila was doing the dealing, and that hasnt turned out to be too fruitful.

so why trade them?

He's also really talented and has nasty stuff. If he can learn to control that (which he did a decent job of until recently), he's probably a closer in this league.

It would have been hard to part with him, particularly if he was bringing back lottery tickets.

 

[buddha]

21 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

He's also really talented and has nasty stuff. If he can learn to control that (which he did a decent job of until recently), he's probably a closer in this league.

It would have been hard to part with him, particularly if he was bringing back lottery tickets.

 

yeah, i dont get the recriminations because we didnt trade lange.  the most you would get is a guy who might be lange in three years.  youve already got lange.  might as well keep him and see if you can develop him more.

[mtutiger]

1 hour ago, buddha said:

yeah, i dont get the recriminations because we didnt trade lange.  the most you would get is a guy who might be lange in three years.  youve already got lange.  might as well keep him and see if you can develop him more.

It's worth remembering there was a portion of the fanbase that, not that long before freaking out about the Rosenthal report regarding Skubal being on the table for trade rumors, were musing aloud whether Skubal was a flash in the pan because of a string of bad starts.... nonetheless, he ended up pitching a lot better following that stretch leading up to the deadline and before his injury.

I suspect we are in the midst of one of these stretches with Lange as well (hopefully sans injury anyway). Development isn't linear, and a bad month isn't, in and of itself, going to make or break him.

Edited September 2, 2022 by mtutiger