09/09/2022 8:10 EDT Detroit Tigers at Kansas City Royals

[chasfh]

36 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

Who was the Toledo hitting coach they brought up with Tork and Kreidler?

Maybe everyone en masse decided to shift over and listen to him instead of Hessman and Coolbaugh?

Just WAG'ing here...

Coolbaugh and Hessman probably can’t fix flaws. 

[Hart]

Should we feel good if we go into Spring Training next year with Eric Haase as our primary catcher?  Seems like nobody ever talks about him as anything more than a backup.  But a .750 OPS from a catcher over roughly his last 700 at bats is nothing to sneeze at.  I don't watch enough games at this point in the season to really notice his defense but I have a hard time believing we could do better than him in the offseason.  

 

[casimir]

11 hours ago, buddha said:

someone with the name spencer torkleson is just begging to be named the Duke of Something or Another...

Sorry, I've already taken that title.

[casimir]

26 minutes ago, Hart said:

Should we feel good if we go into Spring Training next year with Eric Haase as our primary catcher?  Seems like nobody ever talks about him as anything more than a backup.  But a .750 OPS from a catcher over roughly his last 700 at bats is nothing to sneeze at.  I don't watch enough games at this point in the season to really notice his defense but I have a hard time believing we could do better than him in the offseason.  

 

That's what prevents him from being a starter.

They can't bring Barnhart back.  He's a free agent he simply isn't more than a journeyman type.  There are probably questions to answer about Rogers coming back from Tommy John surgery.  But with all of the other holes that need to be filled, and with C not being one position to fill offensively (most of the time), they might roll with a tandem of Haase/Rogers and have a AAAA type with MLB experience in Toledo as a break glass in case of emergency type.  Dingler probably starts out in Toledo next season.  Or maybe they go with Rogers in Toledo at first to prove himself and sign a one year deal with some random C to split time with Haase?  Rogers will be 28 next season, so one would think whatever time spent in AAA would be simply to get back into game shape rather than player development.

A lot is up in the air simply because there is no GM right now.  That person might decide to torpedo the whole position and move Haase while his value is at its highest.

[gehringer_2]

5 minutes ago, casimir said:

That's what prevents him from being a starter.

They can't bring Barnhart back.  He's a free agent he simply isn't more than a journeyman type.  There are probably questions to answer about Rogers coming back from Tommy John surgery.  But with all of the other holes that need to be filled, and with C not being one position to fill offensively (most of the time), they might roll with a tandem of Haase/Rogers and have a AAAA type with MLB experience in Toledo as a break glass in case of emergency type.  Dingler probably starts out in Toledo next season.  Or maybe they go with Rogers in Toledo at first to prove himself and sign a one year deal with some random C to split time with Haase?  Rogers will be 28 next season, so one would think whatever time spent in AAA would be simply to get back into game shape rather than player development.

A lot is up in the air simply because there is no GM right now.  That person might decide to torpedo the whole position and move Haase while his value is at its highest.

Dickerson was saying steals were up in the minors with the pitch clock and throw over rules, so the premium on top defensive catchers is only going to go up. Of course throwing is only one aspect of a catcher's defense and I don't think it's his throwing (his CS% is bit above league average) as much as his receiving that is the knock on Hasse.

[casimir]

7 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Dickerson was saying steals were up in the minors with the pitch clock and throw over rules, so the premium on top defensive catchers is only going to go up. Of course throwing is only one aspect of a catcher's defense and I don't think it's his throwing (his CS% is bit above league average) as much as his receiving that is the knock on Hasse.

The throw over rules are interesting.  Did they get approved for MLB?  What was it, max of 2 throw overs per pitch?  That puts a premium of C defense like you say, but I would think it also forces Ps to mix up times when in the stretch.

[mtutiger]

Tigers entered Wednesday with only 80 homers, at risk of less than 100 in a season for the first time in forever.

They have now managed 87... should make the task somewhat more achievable with 24 games left to go.

[gehringer_2]

Haase should have played more this season. He couldn't get out of his own way in April so it put his numbers in a hole for the whole season, but from May 1 forward his OPS is > 800 over 250 PA. I get that they wanted to get Barnhart going and they liked his receiving, but they needed the hitting more. Again, what has the focus of this organization been? Is there any discernable? Winning? Player development? Or just an ad hoc mishmash of playing guys you happen to want to regardless of any movement forward with a consistent concept?

[Hart]

I also wonder if Haase is actually bad as a defensive catcher as people think.  That's a hard thing to measure as a fan.  A guy gets a reputation as a bad defensive catcher early in his career and then it is hard to change people's minds.  

[mtutiger]

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

Haase should have played more this season. He couldn't get out of his own way in April so it put his numbers in a hole for the whole season, but from May 1 forward his OPS is > 800 over 250 PA. I get that they wanted to get Barnhart going and they liked his receiving, but they needed the hitting more. Again, what has the focus of this organization been? Is there any discernable? Winning? Player development? Or just an ad hoc mishmash of playing guys you happen to want to regardless of any movement forward with a consistent concept?

Part of the issue is (because of Cabrera) the inability to utilize him at DH... In an ideal world, he'd be getting more ABs on his off days at catcher.

I do know that people look at catcher as an area they need to upgrade, and they do need to come up with a longer term solution soon, but I've seen enough out of Haase where I think they can live with Haase/Rogers/Barnhart or FA signing for 2023. And hope that Dingler progresses or they can further upgrade in 2024

[gehringer_2]

8 minutes ago, Hart said:

I also wonder if Haase is actually bad as a defensive catcher as people think.  That's a hard thing to measure as a fan.  A guy gets a reputation as a bad defensive catcher early in his career and then it is hard to change people's minds.  

Part of it is that most guys would suffer in any comparison to Barnhart, who is really good back there. But even Ozzie Smith had to hit to stay in the majors. You can acknowledge Tucker's excellence with the glove and still be clear it doesn't buy him 250+ MLB ABs if he can't OPS 550.

Edited September 10, 2022 by gehringer_2

[1984Echoes]

7 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

... they do need to come up with a longer term solution soon, but I've seen enough out of Haase where I think they can live with Haase/ Rogers/ Barnhart Sanchez (at AAA) or FA signing for 2023. And hope that Dingler (at AAA in 2023) progresses or they can further upgrade in 2024

Yes.

I made a couple adjustments but used your comment because I think that's where we're at.

Just my 2 cents but I don't think the Org/ new GM will have any interest in bringing Barnhart back so it's Dingler and Sanchez at AAA and Rogers/ Haase with the Tigers. I don't know how Jake's arm is progressing after TJ but... I don't think they'll bring in a FA either... I think next year will be to just see how the position fleshes out next year or, as you've pointed out, try upgrading in 2024 if they feel it's necessary.

I don't know if Dingler will be the starter in 2024, or just get a cup because he isn't quite ready... but I think he can be the long-term answer. We'll see...

[Hart]

Too bad one of Rogers or Haase does not hit left handed.  It would make that a more natural platoon situation.  

[gehringer_2]

I don't think Dingler's bat has shown enough to get him to the majors yet. Maybe it will next season but if I'm playing GM he hasn't converted his prospect status to eventual MLB contributor yet. That and the fact that Rogers' bat is not getting any preview this season makes C pretty wide open for next season: Haase plus unknown unknowns. 

Edited September 10, 2022 by gehringer_2

[1984Echoes]

Right...

But you gotta see what happens with Rogers' bat and arm and Dingler at AAA before determining how dire the need at catcher is... long-term. I would be extremely reluctant to make any decisions/ commitments at the position before I see what we've got (if I were the new GM... just like I wouldn't want to make an expensive/ long-term commitment to a 1B'man or another rotation arm until...).

PS: I thought Dingler's bat had a higher hit tool... but he looks like he's going to be at the Parrish (.252 lifetime BA) or Rogers level rather than higher... but that's OK if he shows up with Parrish's power and excellent defense. He's not there yet, but in 2023 I'm looking at what he does in AAA and what Crouch does in AA.

And what Rogers may, or may not, still be able to provide.

And then making decisions.

But that's just me...

[buddha]

84lives has been smoking hopium again.  🙂

[gehringer_2]

17 hours ago, chasfh said:

Coolbaugh and Hessman probably can’t fix flaws. 

I can't come up with the link but I thought I read it was the guy from double A they brought to Det.

[1984Echoes]

24 minutes ago, buddha said:

84lives has been smoking hopium again.  🙂

I'm always high on hopium.

Hopelessly high on hopium.

But I'm good at it too...!

[casimir]

6 hours ago, Hart said:

Too bad one of Rogers or Haase does not hit left handed.  It would make that a more natural platoon situation.  

Too bad Barnhart didn’t hit left handed.

[gehringer_2]

22 minutes ago, casimir said:

Too bad Barnhart didn’t hit ..

'nuf said right there..