Where Do Things End With Vlad? (h/t romad1)

[Motown Bombers]

Your GDP apparently determines whether you're allowed to be a sovereign nation and avoid hostile countries from invading your country. 

[romad1]

The GOP has been trying to flex on this aid to Ukraine.  Sadly, for that effort our investment in civilization and collective security is popular with the proles, if not the investor class.

[romad1]

But what about our GDP?

[Motown Bombers]

I also love how not arming Ukraine means your anti-war even though Russia is going to go to war anyways and many people are going to still be killed. 

[romad1]

5 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

I also love how not arming Ukraine means your anti-war even though Russia is going to go to war anyways and many people are going to still be killed. 

Dark Brandon has mucked with the authoritarian playbook.  Good job Biden.

[smr-nj]

1 hour ago, ewsieg said:

 

I didn't realize we had so many Russian assets on this forum. 

Meanwhile, friendly fire raised legitimate talk about article 5 from NATO, so please tell me again how WWIII talk is so far out of left field.

Oy vey.  All I said is “let’s wait to find out what happened”. 😂

BTw, I still think Russia is at fault because of THEIR barrage of strikes on civilian centers that day. They’re the aggressor. From the start. 
And I think we have to continue to arm Ukraine, and do it NOW while Russia is in a weaker position , so that Russia doesn’t rebuild its arsenal and its army by spring.

[romad1]

6 minutes ago, smr-nj said:

Oy vey.  All I said is “let’s wait to find out what happened”. 😂

BTw, I still think Russia is at fault because of THEIR barrage of strikes on civilian centers that day. They’re the aggressor. From the start. 
And I think we have to continue to arm Ukraine, and do it NOW while Russia is in a weaker position , so that Russia doesn’t rebuild its arsenal and its army by spring.

CONCUR

[ewsieg]

My comment was towards the fact that you can't even have reservations about our role in Ukraine without being labeled a Russian asset.  

I don't agree with Screwball on his stance with Ukraine, but he does state some legitimate facts.  And as far as posting dead bodies of Ukrainians as a response, where does it stop then?  We've determined what China is doing with the Uyghurs is genocide.  If GDP shouldn't be an issue, than why aren't we at least supplying Uyghurs with weapons.  I'm confident they will fight if they have weapons.   Yemen, a lot of atrocities going on there, often by Saudi's.  Let's send Yemen 70 billion to defend themselves.  

I understand the pro's in supporting Ukraine as well.  But let's not play this "Ukraine is the only one that should have any say" crap. War is hell.  I'm not saying we have to tell Ukraine to concede their territory and hope Russia will agree to it, but at least allow some reservations be said about it.  By propagandizing the war, it doesn't help your cause.

[romad1]

34 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

My comment was towards the fact that you can't even have reservations about our role in Ukraine without being labeled a Russian asset.  

I don't agree with Screwball on his stance with Ukraine, but he does state some legitimate facts.  And as far as posting dead bodies of Ukrainians as a response, where does it stop then?  We've determined what China is doing with the Uyghurs is genocide.  If GDP shouldn't be an issue, than why aren't we at least supplying Uyghurs with weapons.  I'm confident they will fight if they have weapons.   Yemen, a lot of atrocities going on there, often by Saudi's.  Let's send Yemen 70 billion to defend themselves.  

I understand the pro's in supporting Ukraine as well.  But let's not play this "Ukraine is the only one that should have any say" crap. War is hell.  I'm not saying we have to tell Ukraine to concede their territory and hope Russia will agree to it, but at least allow some reservations be said about it.  By propagandizing the war, it doesn't help your cause.

Self determination, collective security and the rule of law have been solid investments for civilization.  When we allow genocide to occur its a blight on the entire human project.  You don't want to invest in civilization, fine.   I don't want to bum you out with the disturbing images of what happens when we ignore the cost of dictatorship.

[ewsieg]

29 minutes ago, romad1 said:

Self determination, collective security and the rule of law have been solid investments for civilization.  When we allow genocide to occur its a blight on the entire human project.  You don't want to invest in civilization, fine.   I don't want to bum you out with the disturbing images of what happens when we ignore the cost of dictatorship.

So you do support a policy where the US ensures genocide within China stops that goes up all the way to military involvement?

[romad1]

Cool story.  Now go find some blow. 

[smr-nj]

50 minutes ago, romad1 said:

Cool story.  Now go find some blow. 

A whole family of paper tigers.

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, ewsieg said:

So you do support a policy where the US ensures genocide within China stops that goes up all the way to military involvement?

This is always a close if not quite 'what-a-bout' arg that I don't really like. Granted, you can't do everything everywhere, but how could you ask for a better opportunity than 40 million people on the East gate of the 1st world just begging for nothing more than the help to do the job themselves? It's every foreign policy objective of the US for the last 70 yrs served up a silver (well, blue and yellow) platter and carries the support of every major ally. It's exactly everything Vietnam and Iraq and Afghanistan were not.

Do you just go bomb Moscow? No. But there is a way to put the Ukrainians in a winning position without starting WWIII. I think we have been close the correct track: keep upping the military capabilities of Ukraine so that options slowly close off to Russia one by one. This is 100% the frog in boiling water paradigm. You have to normalize each level of losing for the Russians before you go the next one. You want the situation for Russia to become hopeless, not dire. It's true that a Ukrainian might see this as a cynical way to fight the battle that asks greater sacrifices of them than if a NATO force just stormed right up to the Russian border, but you have to deal with peace after the war as well, and while I think we all want some kind of political upheaval in Russia, I don't think anyone wants to risk the possible consequences of its total collapse.

Edited November 16, 2022 by gehringer_2

[ewsieg]

37 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

This is always a close if not quite 'what-a-bout' arg that I don't really like. Granted, you can't do everything everywhere, but how could you ask for a better opportunity than 40 million people on the East gate of the 1st world just begging for nothing more than the help to do the job themselves? It's every foreign policy objective of the US for the last 70 yrs served up a silver (well, blue and yellow) platter and carries the support of every major ally. It's exactly everything Vietnam and Iraq and Afghanistan were not.

Do you just go bomb Moscow? No. But there is a way to put the Ukrainians in a winning position without starting WWIII. I think we have been close the correct track: keep upping the military capabilities of Ukraine so that options slowly close off to Russia one by one. This is 100% the frog in boiling water paradigm. You have to normalize each level of losing for the Russians before you go the next one. You want the situation for Russia to become hopeless, not dire. It's true that a Ukrainian might see this as a cynical way to fight the battle that asks greater sacrifices of them than if a NATO force just stormed right up to the Russian border, but you have to deal with peace after the war as well, and while I think we all want some kind of political upheaval in Russia, I don't think anyone wants to risk the possible consequences of its total collapse.

Note that I'm not going to just say you have some good points, but your thoughts on Russia above are my prevailing thoughts as well.   What I don't like that I've seen on this forum since this started is that if you don't give Ukraine everything they want/need, you're a Russia asset.  Btw, here are pics of a bunch of dead Ukrainians to 1) rile up the side that agrees with me and make them more steadfast and entrenched in their positions and 2) point out to anyone that opposes my thoughts, this is what we will have if we listen to you.  Well, this is what we have doing it with unprecedented support to Ukraine right now. 

Biden has done a good job of helping support Ukraine without escalating anything directly with Russia.  But we are playing with fire.  You can correctly point out the Russia started the fire, but we're still playing with it.  Maybe continuing this course is the best plan.  Heck, maybe declaring Ukraine air space closed and marching troops to secure the western/central part of the country is a 'drop the gloves' moment that we just need to get done and hope for the best.  

What I don't think is good though is simply saying that for humanity we need to help them fight (while ignoring other atrocities elsewhere) and ignoring anything that doesn't paint this war in a good light.

[romad1]

An under appreciated result of this war has been the total devaluation of Russian military tech.  Nobody with any sense would buy it and think it would be anything but garbage.  If that keeps the thugs in the Kremlin and the palaces of Sochi from earning just that much more hard currency, all to the good.   If the devaluation of Russian military tech deflates their political capital just a bit more it is also all to the good.  Fewer opportunities to bribe the NRA and other GOP-affiliates.  Fewer opportunities to work the back allies of the underworld.  Fewer threats to US and allied politicians of blackmail. 

Incremental Good we should all be happy to support.  And all it costs us was a fraction of our military budget.  And it allowed us to show the Chinese that they should not sleep on Western military tech.  You may be able to shatter Taiwan, and Okinawa with your missiles.  You might be able to lodge on the coast of Taiwan.  But if you do, we are coming for you and we have a very, very accurate big stick.  And it will kick your ass. 

[Screwball]

5 hours ago, romad1 said:

The GOP has been trying to flex on this aid to Ukraine.  Sadly, for that effort our investment in civilization and collective security is popular with the proles, if not the investor class.

You should read the Constitution instead of the PNAC imperialistic manifesto.

[romad1]

1 minute ago, Screwball said:

You should read the Constitution instead of the PNAC imperialistic manifesto.

Hence the last election wherein the supporters of Democracy and collective security and support for Ukraine won decisively over the people trashing the Constitution.

[romad1]

Another good outcome

https://twitter.com/michaeldweiss/status/1592878945556652035?s=20&t=Zxi7hpXq91VXQWhDOtZMCw

[romad1]

To the charge that UN, NATO and EU support for Ukraine is "imperialist" against the territorial acquisition of its territory by the dictator Putin i'd say:  uh what?

 

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, romad1 said:

To the charge that UN, NATO and EU support for Ukraine is "imperialist" against the territorial acquisition of its territory by the dictator Putin i'd say:  uh what?

 

Tim Snyder has a response to that:

 

[mtutiger]

18 hours ago, Screwball said:

The entire war is insanity.  We have now sent how many billions (70-90?) to one of the most corrupt countries in the world, while provoking a nuclear power, rejecting detente, feeding endless war bullshit (propaganda) to our people via the mouth organs of the press (hate to break this to you, but Russia is NOT losing this war, and won't)?  WTF?  Oh, and Ukraine has a GDP about the size of Nebraska.  Double WTF?

A couple of things: this was a war of choice, and the choice was made by one person and one person alone. Vladimir Putin. The United States, Ukraine, or anyone else did not make that choice. He did. I find it odd that you are not directing any of your ire toward him.

Secondly, basically none of Russia's stated objectives at the beginning of the war have come to pass. They did not decapitate the Ukrainian government, they did not install a "de-nazified", pro-Russian government. They basically haven't been able to hold any land on the west side of the Dnieper River and, when it is all said and done, will have send over 100,000 of their troops into the meat grinder to die for, what, exactly?

They have achieved very little, and have watched their military get wiped out by a country who, as you put has, has a GDP the size of Nebraska. Given that, I don't know how one can objectively look at that report card based on the objectives that the Russian government laid out at the beginning of the invasion that they chose to embark on and declare that they are "NOT losing" this war.

Edited November 17, 2022 by mtutiger

[mtutiger]

My biggest problem is that a lot of the more skeptical arguments made against providing support, not necessarily by ewsieg but more on the ends of the horseshoe, tends to couch their skepticism toward providing support or their desire to achieving diplomacy with Putin in some sort of humanitarian concern about the Ukrainians, but which ultimately isn't shared by the almost all actual Ukrainians. You know, the ones actually fighting this war and dying to preserve their ability to self determination and for their identity.

As much as the Glenn Greenwald types love to screech about elitism, isn't it also kind of elitist to also advance a narrative that the Ukrainians need to end the war over his concerns about death and destruction when the Ukrainians dying to preserve their country don't actually agree or place the same value on his concerns? Doesn't that matter at all?

Put another way, I would rather people be intellectually honest and just say they don't give a **** about Russian imperialism instead of couching their concern in humanitarianism. Because if they cared about the latter, they'd actually listen to the Ukrainians as opposed to just marginalizing their views.

[romad1]

 

Yeah…

[romad1]

huh…

Did we finally get Karla?

 

[romad1]

Looks like we have something like a Karla