romad1 Posted February 11, 2022 Share Posted February 11, 2022 Hopefully this is a metaphor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted February 11, 2022 Share Posted February 11, 2022 Apparently Macron's requirement not to be poisoned is being seized on by the nutters as evidence that when they take your PCR test "they" can do something nefarious with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted February 11, 2022 Author Share Posted February 11, 2022 5 minutes ago, romad1 said: Apparently Macron's requirement not to be poisoned is being seized on by the nutters as evidence that when they take your PCR test "they" can do something nefarious with it. Projection junction, that’s their function … Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted February 11, 2022 Share Posted February 11, 2022 I understand the Crimea is similar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted February 11, 2022 Share Posted February 11, 2022 14 minutes ago, romad1 said: I understand the Crimea is similar If you look at history, you could argue that as a practical matter, empires are too expensive to maintain over disaffected populations without chattel slavery or at least feudalism, it's what held up most empires. Short of enslavement, captive populations will not be economically vibrant given that their ambitions become so crimped. Of course Xi thinks he is clever enough to find the way around that - we'll see what Hong Kong looks like in another 10 yrs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted February 11, 2022 Share Posted February 11, 2022 this from an Atlantic article a few yrs ago when the Russians moved into Donbass. There has been time enough that there has no-doubt been some shifting, but you see the basis of Putin channeling Hitler's Sudetenland ambitions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted February 11, 2022 Share Posted February 11, 2022 10 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: this from an Atlantic article a few yrs ago when the Russians moved into Donbass. There has been time enough that there has no-doubt been some shifting, but you see the basis of Putin channeling Hitler's Sudetenland ambitions. Erdogan is interested in all this because of the Turkish minorities in these territories. He could give a fig about Russian majorities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 11, 2022 Share Posted February 11, 2022 US is urging Americans to get out of Ukraine now. Russian invasion appears imminent and the US will not help rescue stranded Americans. You know some Americans will stay behind despite the warnings for weeks and Jake Tapper will become obsessed with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted February 11, 2022 Share Posted February 11, 2022 16 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: US is urging Americans to get out of Ukraine now. Russian invasion appears imminent and the US will not help rescue stranded Americans. You know some Americans will stay behind despite the warnings for weeks and Jake Tapper will become obsessed with it. Some discussion about how the media will broadcast this. During 2003 and 1991 attacks in Baghdad, the US networks had very shrewd workarounds. Vladdie doesn't want to show his mayhem on TV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 11, 2022 Share Posted February 11, 2022 2 minutes ago, romad1 said: Some discussion about how the media will broadcast this. During 2003 and 1991 attacks in Baghdad, the US networks had very shrewd workarounds. Vladdie doesn't want to show his mayhem on TV. We know Fox News will show Biden eating an ice cream cone instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted February 11, 2022 Share Posted February 11, 2022 11 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: We know Fox News will show Biden eating an ice cream cone instead. I wonder if they will have embeds in with the Russian columns Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigeraholic1 Posted February 11, 2022 Share Posted February 11, 2022 1 hour ago, Motown Bombers said: US is urging Americans to get out of Ukraine now. Russian invasion appears imminent and the US will not help rescue stranded Americans. You know some Americans will stay behind despite the warnings for weeks and Jake Tapper will become obsessed with it. You know it is not a simple as that. There were Americans left behind in Afghanistan because they were making sure families of diplomats and other soft targets were evacuated ahead of them. The Taliban are systematically slaughtering anyone who worked with us including their families still today. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted February 11, 2022 Share Posted February 11, 2022 17 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said: You know it is not a simple as that. There were Americans left behind in Afghanistan because they were making sure families of diplomats and other soft targets were evacuated ahead of them. The Taliban are systematically slaughtering anyone who worked with us including their families still today. If Vlad the Hammer destroys Kiev in order to save it he is going to kill some Americans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted February 11, 2022 Share Posted February 11, 2022 44 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said: You know it is not a simple as that. There were Americans left behind in Afghanistan because they were making sure families of diplomats and other soft targets were evacuated ahead of them. The Taliban are systematically slaughtering anyone who worked with us including their families still today. The most complex cases were/are always dual nationals, primarily people born in country that have become naturalized US citizens and are back either because of family, NGO or US sponsored work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted February 12, 2022 Share Posted February 12, 2022 (edited) Look, I question the extent and role that the US should be involved and all... But come on... doesn't what Ukranians today want matter in all of this? Who cares about 1790 to 1971? Edited February 12, 2022 by mtutiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted February 12, 2022 Share Posted February 12, 2022 33 minutes ago, mtutiger said: Look, I question the extent and role that the US should be involved and all... But come on... doesn't what Ukranians today want matter in all of this? Who cares about 1790 to 1971? I wouldn't let the statement "history isn't relevant" pass without a comment on the fact that it's an asinine thing to say. History is ALWAYS relevant. Whether it should be determinative in any given case may be an open question, but not the relevance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted February 12, 2022 Share Posted February 12, 2022 (edited) 16 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: I wouldn't let the statement "history isn't relevant" pass without a comment on the fact that it's an asinine thing to say. History is ALWAYS relevant. Whether it should be determinative in any given case may be an open question, but not the relevance. Fair enough... I just really wish that people arguing the position highlighted above would just freely admit that they do not care about the wishes of the majority of 43 million Ukranians. Don't couch it in history or sphere of influence or anything like that, just admit that one doesn't give a shit. That never happens with the Putin apologists tho... Edited February 12, 2022 by mtutiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted February 12, 2022 Share Posted February 12, 2022 Yeah, History...that cuts both ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted February 12, 2022 Share Posted February 12, 2022 (edited) 21 minutes ago, mtutiger said: Fair enough... I just really wish that people arguing the position highlighted above would just freely admit that they do not care about the wishes of the majority of 43 million Ukranians. Don't couch it in history or sphere of influence or anything like that, just admit that one doesn't give a shit. That never happens with the Putin apologists tho... still MTU - there is still a universe of space from the extremes of not caring about something (giving a shit) and being willing to start WWIII over it. Case in point was a story today in the NYT about Finns rejecting 'Finlandization' as positive historical outcome. But no-one bothered to challenge those Finns who thought that Finlandization was so bad with the comparison with the actual alternative of having been forced into occupation and Soviet satellite status and how much further ahead Finland is today for not having suffered that fate. You push back as hard as possible with every tool possible and you make is as costly for them as possible, but in the end if the Russians are willing to start shooting on a large scale, we can't opt for a cure that will both be worse than the disease because it will destroy the country, and which also presupposes American's care enough about Ukraine to see their sons and daughters die there, which is again a much higher bar than simply 'not caring', If it's the welfare of Ukrainians we value, than destroying the country is certainly a worse outcome than anything the Russians will do it between now and Putin's eventual demise. That may be cynical, but it's also true. Edited February 12, 2022 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted February 12, 2022 Share Posted February 12, 2022 After WWII, so the story goes there was some dinner party in England and some chinless wag lifts his glass and says "its so nice to finally get back to all the things we've been fighting for" and his companion looks at the table of upper class twits and asks "are they all poles?" Its a story i've seen in multiple forms. Ukraine has paid a packet since 1917. Just like Poland did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted February 12, 2022 Share Posted February 12, 2022 29 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: You push back as hard as possible with every tool possible and you make is as costly for them as possible, but in the end if the Russians are willing to start shooting on a large scale, we can't opt for a cure that will both be worse than the disease because it will destroy the country, and which also presupposes American's care enough about Ukraine to see their sons and daughters die there, which is again a much higher bar than simply 'not caring', If it's the welfare of Ukrainians we value, than destroying the country is certainly a worse outcome than anything the Russians will do it between now and Putin's eventual demise. That may be cynical, but it's also true. Who is talking about sending American kids to war in Ukraine? I start from the position that will never happen. What I'm seeing from the Ryan Grim types, however, is that pushing back as hard as possible with every tool possible and you make is as costly for them as possible is the same as instigating a war or sending kids to die. And that's a load of crap. They'd all rather we did nothing and let Ukraine be subjugated with no support, regardless of their wishes. I just wish people who held that position wouldn't wax on about spheres of influence or the status quo 100 yeas ago... just admit that you dont think we should do anything and that you don't care. At least that would be intellectually honest. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted February 12, 2022 Share Posted February 12, 2022 7 minutes ago, mtutiger said: Who is talking about sending American kids to war in Ukraine? I start from the position that will never happen. What I'm seeing from the Ryan Grim types, however, is that pushing back as hard as possible with every tool possible and you make is as costly for them as possible is the same as instigating a war or sending kids to die. And that's a load of crap. They'd all rather we did nothing and let Ukraine be subjugated with no support, regardless of their wishes. I just wish people who held that position wouldn't wax on about spheres of influence or the status quo 100 yeas ago... just admit that you dont think we should do anything and that you don't care. At least that would be intellectually honest. [chef's kiss] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted February 12, 2022 Share Posted February 12, 2022 Its crazy to think this...but Biden and Sullivan have played this pretty well. They have judiciously leaked intel that I won't tell you how dear that stuff is because of sources and methods. But,the intel is use or lose. They won't save Ultra by letting the Germans conquer Britain. Letting the Japanese conquer Australia wouldn't save the analogous US code breaking operation against Japan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted February 12, 2022 Share Posted February 12, 2022 4 minutes ago, mtutiger said: Who is talking about sending American kids to war in Ukraine? I start from the position that will never happen. What I'm seeing from the Ryan Grim types, however, is that pushing back as hard as possible with every tool possible and you make is as costly for them as possible is the same as instigating a war or sending kids to die. And that's a load of crap. They'd all rather we did nothing and let Ukraine be subjugated with no support, regardless of their wishes. I just wish people who held that position wouldn't wax on about spheres of influence or the status quo 100 yeas ago... just admit that you dont think we should do anything and that you don't care. At least that would be intellectually honest. I'll be honest, at the time of the Crimean annexation I thought the issues were much more grey. Ukraine's gov was barely any better than Moscow's and Crimea is/was majority ethic Russian and Russian speaking and the history was that Stalin only made Crimea part of Ukraine in one his made for show federation moves - it had been core Russian for a long time prior. My view then was that if Putin weren't so ham handed (and loath to do anything democratic) he probably could have won a Russian preference plebiscite in Crimea. So I wasn't particularly then and really still am not all that worked up over Crimea. But Ukraine has morphed into a bigger issue for the overall future of Europe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 12, 2022 Share Posted February 12, 2022 3 hours ago, romad1 said: Yeah, History...that cuts both ways. Correct. Prior to 1790 they were part of a Polish-Lithuanian Empire (not I believe as a co-equal but at least with some autonomy and dignity rather than being raped as Stalin did to them). Prior to that they were an Independent Nation, prior to that, they WERE the Rus empire (loose term based on the day and age) based in Kiev; and Moscow didn't even exist. From the first Viking settlers in the late 800's AD until 1790 (900 years of history), they were either Independent, or controlled all of the territory surrounding them. But that doesn't mean anything because Russia defeated the Polish-Lithuanian Empire and took control of Ukrainian territory in 1790. Putin... go F yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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