Where Do Things End With Vlad? (h/t romad1)

[1984Echoes]

31 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

Numerous reports like this surfaced.  He was very outspoken on member NATO countries (most of them) that weren't paying their committed rate on defense spending.  It was a valid complaint....

This part is true though.

And Putin certainly straightened that out really quick...

[romad1]

5 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

This part is true though.

And Putin certainly straightened that out really quick...

The solution to free rider syndrome is to have the barbarians at the gate

[gehringer_2]

22 minutes ago, romad1 said:

The solution to free rider syndrome is to have the barbarians at the gate

Exactly. I would still argue that the problem with NATO funding was not as simple as Trump wanted to make it. For Germany increasing defense spending - to start becoming an effective military power, almost could not, and maybe should not, have happened exactly until there was a threat with a clearly defined moral dimension for it to be in response to. Otherwise re-arming was going to invoke a lot of cultural trauma. The case now is clear enough that those proper reservations are swept away.

And Germany was the fulcrum because as the most efficient economy in Europe, every other NATO country begrudged spending more of their GDP than Germany did because it just made them less economically competitive in the EU.

Edited March 21, 2022 by gehringer_2

[romad1]

Just now, gehringer_2 said:

Exactly. I would still argue that the problem with NATO funding was not as simple as Trump wanted to make it. For Germany increasing defense spending - to start becoming an effective military power, almost could not, and maybe should not, have happened exactly until there was a threat with a clearly defined moral dimension for it be in response to. Otherwise re-arming was going to invoke a lot of cultural trauma. The case now is clear enough that those proper reservations are swept away.

And Germany was the fulcrum because as the most efficient economy in Europe, every other NATO country begrudged spending more of their GDP than Germany did because it just made them less economically competitive.

That's an interesting point.  

I also wonder if the move is bottom-up from the public who emotionally view the threat as greater from Russia than their economic well-being.   German leadership has been dragging its feet on weapons and aid to Ukraine and Eastern NATO but the public are packing the protest marches.  

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, 1984Echoes said:

I think the complaint on the 2% was a cover. 

Trump is an isolationist and truly wants out of NATO, International agreements/ conflicts/ etc...

At least that's my opinion...

Pretending Trump was concerned only for the American people is so precious.

Fact is, Trump wants as close to a lawless frontier as he can manage, because his style of business wins in that environment.

[1984Echoes]

Germany is working its way slowly, ever so slowly, away from its dependence on Russian oil & gas:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/20/germany-gas-deal-qatar-end-energy-dependency-on-russia

[ewsieg]

3 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Exactly. I would still argue that the problem with NATO funding was not as simple as Trump wanted to make it. For Germany increasing defense spending - to start becoming an effective military power, almost could not, and maybe should not, have happened exactly until there was a threat with a clearly defined moral dimension for it to be in response to. Otherwise re-arming was going to invoke a lot of cultural trauma. The case now is clear enough that those proper reservations are swept away.

And Germany was the fulcrum because as the most efficient economy in Europe, every other NATO country begrudged spending more of their GDP than Germany did because it just made them less economically competitive in the EU.

To me, sounds like just more excuses, which i'm sure Trump and many others are just tired of hearing.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-44717074

Germany agreed to 2% by 2024, and every other NATO country knew that they were asking Germany to increase spending, just as they were asking themselves that.  This wasn't something sprung on Germany.

As of 2019, they were saying they wouldn't be up to 2% until 2031.  For your second paragraph, Germany holding off on spending, just as you say, put pressure on other countries not to meet the goal too.  

[romad1]

Interesting numbers

 

Might be higher

[CMRivdogs]

 

[1984Echoes]

24 minutes ago, romad1 said:

Interesting numbers

 

Might be higher

But it certainly seems reasonable.

It probably is less than what Ukraine is claiming, but at least a little more than the Russian numbers (simply because of verification lag...).

Also, how many Russian soldiers have surrendered? I don't know who to trust with a good number there but... those guys ae no longer in the war either...

[romad1]

1 hour ago, 1984Echoes said:

But it certainly seems reasonable.

It probably is less than what Ukraine is claiming, but at least a little more than the Russian numbers (simply because of verification lag...).

Also, how many Russian soldiers have surrendered? I don't know who to trust with a good number there but... those guys ae no longer in the war either...

They put these numbers out there (leaked or otherwise) to argue that the Ukrainian number of 14k KIA were outrageous.  I mean...

if you are arguing 14k is ridiculous but a hair under 10k is more reasonable...you are in "there is no cannibalism in the Royal Navy" territory

[romad1]

The speed of these losses... Can only imagine all the damage this is doing to Russian air crews, leadership cadres.

[Tigerbomb13]

Absolutely horrifying account of what’s been going on in Mariupol. War crime upon war crime. 
 

So what happens when the International Courts inevitably find Vlad guilty of all these war crimes? It’s not like he’s going to get captured. 

[smr-nj]

Someone / somewhere / needs to get the message across to whomever still has any kind of power/influence in the Russian theater that keeping Putin intact & capable of these continued atrocities is going to have dire consequences on THEM.

[1984Echoes]

36 minutes ago, Tigerbomb13 said:

Absolutely horrifying account of what’s been going on in Mariupol. War crime upon war crime. 
 

So what happens when the International Courts inevitably find Vlad guilty of all these war crimes? It’s not like he’s going to get captured. 

If Russia blockades Mariupol and no one can gain entry...

All of these war crimes don't exist.

Verification IS going to be the tricky part. Even though everyone knows all those crimes absolutely exist.

[Tigerbomb13]

20 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

If Russia blockades Mariupol and no one can gain entry...

All of these war crimes don't exist.

Verification IS going to be the tricky part. Even though everyone knows all those crimes absolutely exist.

For sure. One chilling part of that is how the Russian troops were searching out the press in order to get them to go on camera and lie for propaganda purposes. 

[Tiger337]

9 hours ago, chasfh said:

Pretending Trump was concerned only for the American people is so precious.

Fact is, Trump wants as close to a lawless frontier as he can manage, because his style of business wins in that environment.

I can't emphasize enough that EVERYTHING Trump says or does is for himself and only himself.

[1984Echoes]

2 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I can't emphasize enough that EVERYTHING Trump says or does is for himself and only himself.

There's a book out there with an appropriate title:

"Everything Trump Touches Dies"

It's by Rick Miller who just excoriates him. Unvarnished. 

[romad1]

Gen. Wesley Clark describing how the UK SAS are training Yookies to fight inside Russia.  Woah.  I mean, we kinda knew but...that's really newsie.

Edited March 22, 2022 by romad1

[romad1]

This will cross a line into WWIII territory when Russia feels the pain.  But, they must feel the pain.

[romad1]

this is amazing. Steven Segal is a big fan of Vladdie 

 

[pfife]

21 minutes ago, romad1 said:

this is amazing. Steven Segal is a big fan of Vladdie 

 

I believe Arnie killed the Predator

[pfife]

Anderson Silva trained with Segal for a tad and Segal kept telling him to add a front face kick to his repertoire.   Silva then put a few in the ufc out with the front face kick.   

I hate to say it but Segal kicks Arnies ass in a fight.

The Klitchkos enter the chat.

Edited March 22, 2022 by pfife

[Tigerbomb13]

 

[romad1]

1 hour ago, pfife said:

Anderson Silva trained with Segal for a tad and Segal kept telling him to add a front face kick to his repertoire.   Silva then put a few in the ufc out with the front face kick.   

I hate to say it but Segal kicks Arnies ass in a fight.

The Klitchkos enter the chat.

whut?  Arnold Schwarzenegger has had how many open heart surgeries and Steven Seagal is a mushroom of a bloated lard ass. 

I would put my money on Arnie if they were both in their 30s and 40s though.