Where Do Things End With Vlad? (h/t romad1)

[mtutiger]

7 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Given that, I can live with the occasional rhetorical mistake. And I dont think anything that Biden has said to date has done anything to push us closer to a world war...

I would just add that, iirc, Reagan, who many look back on as the guy who ended the Cold War, used to generate a lot of comments from his opposition that his comments/actions could land us in hot water. Yet we turned out OK there.

Same may be true in this case as well.

Edited March 26, 2022 by mtutiger

[chasfh]

26 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Its another case where Biden is saying something that 80+% of Americans are thinking, but that as leader of the free world, you need to stay above it.

That said, I dont know that it's a massive error either. I dont think it changes much in the grand scheme of things.

For what it’s worth, that how I’m coming out on this.

On the one hand, it’s historically bad form for one superpower to question the existence of another superpower while they are technically at peace.

On the other hand, Biden is just saying not only what every American but Trump and the most ardent red hats are thinking, but also what every country in the world except a handful are also thinking.

Putin is not going to start WWIII with US over that comment because, if nothing else, his dance card looks to be already full.

[mtutiger]

6 minutes ago, romad1 said:

In other words, Biden should double down. 

I like the comparison to The Crown, it seems apt.

I will say that I find it really weird that supporters of the Republican Party, which gave us Reagan, just seem really wobbly about Putin. Now, I get that he has nukes and that is important and all, but even after a largely failed first month of this conflict and a domestic situation that seems far weaker for them, on account of sanctions, there is still this desire to walk on eggshells in regards to this guy.

I keep bringing up Reagan because, if that guy were around today, he wouldn't be doing that. He wouldn't be worried about Putin's feelings or emotions. I could easily see him giving a speech and saying something as forceful or even more forceful.

I dunno, it's just strange to see people talking about how the world is "laughing at us" and how we are "weak" who simultaneously seem to live in fear of Putin's shadow.

[romad1]

This was a stem-winder

 

[mtutiger]

2 minutes ago, chasfh said:

On the other hand, Biden is just saying not only what every American but Trump and the most ardent red hats are thinking, but also what every country in the world except a handful are also thinking.

Its really telling that his two biggest gaffes since this conflict (ie. "Putin is a war criminal", "Putin shouldn't remain") are things that I could have easily heard over the water cooler at work any day since 24 Feb.

Like you suggest, Putin has enough problems on his plate.

[romad1]

3 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

I like the comparison to The Crown, it seems apt.

I will say that I find it really weird that supporters of the Republican Party, which gave us Reagan, just seem really wobbly about Putin. Now, I get that he has nukes and that is important and all, but even after a largely failed first month of this conflict and a domestic situation that seems far weaker for them, on account of sanctions, there is still this desire to walk on eggshells in regards to this guy.

I keep bringing up Reagan because, if that guy were around today, he wouldn't be doing that. He wouldn't be worried about Putin's feelings or emotions. I could easily see him giving a speech and saying something as forceful or even more forceful.

I dunno, it's just strange to see people talking about how the world is "laughing at us" and how we are "weak" who simultaneously seem to live in fear of Putin's shadow.

These are the people who fought the GWOT to end Islam and now think that Putin is the only true Christian because he kills all the gays

[gehringer_2]

3 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

who many look back on as the guy who ended the Cold War,

In Reagan's case, Joviality could cover a multitude of sins.I

I'd also throw a little credit to Gorbachev here - sort of the forgotten man today and certainly one of Putin's demons. I think it's more true that the CCCP fell on its own clock. Besides an American partner, It  took the emergence of a Soviet leader with the willingness to face the contradictions inherent in the Soviet leviathan. All the credit in the world to Reagan having the good sense to see there was a new reality waiting to be grasped, but if Chernenko had been replaced by another Brezhnev minded leader, there would have been nothing more the American side could have done to make it happen when it did.

[pfife]

Putin isn't going to fight the US over Bidens words.   Acting like he would is ridiculous.    Why would he?  We're supposed to be scared of his nukes but he isn't afraid of ours?   OK then 

Edited March 26, 2022 by pfife

[romad1]

1 minute ago, pfife said:

Putin isn't going to fight the US over Bidens words.   Acting like he would is ridiculous.    Why would he?

He might fight the US because he's losing his marbles though.

[pfife]

1 minute ago, romad1 said:

He might fight the US because he's losing his marbles though.

So not Bidens words?

[mtutiger]

3 minutes ago, pfife said:

Putin isn't going to fight the US over Bidens words.   Acting like he would is ridiculous.    Why would he?  We're supposed to be scared of his nukes be he isn't afraid of ours?   OK then 

This kinda gets to something I have seen all the time prior to this war... the almost standard assumption that every piece of leverage is asymmetrical in a way that advantages Russia.

Place sanctions on Russia? Can't do that, they'll pull Russian gas that the Germans et. al need (despite the fact that if Germans et. al aren't buying gas, Russia doesn't make any money). Give weapons to Ukraine? Can't do that, we risk Putin shooting off a nuke (despite MAD / our own nukes).

It's almost like the entire world gaslit themselves into thinking this guy is impregnable and cannot be stood up to. And even as we have learned over the past month that he's not, some still seem to be doing this.

He can still do a lot of bad, but people need to stiffen their spines a little more. The past month has told us that he's not a God.

[romad1]

Just now, mtutiger said:

This kinda gets to something I have seen all the time prior to this war... the almost standard assumption that every piece of leverage is asymmetrical in a way that advantages Russia.

Place sanctions on Russia? Can't do that, they'll pull Russian gas that the Germans et. al need (despite the fact that if Germans et. al aren't buying gas, Russia doesn't make any money). Give weapons to Ukraine? Can't do that, we risk Putin shooting off a nuke (despite MAD / our own nukes).

It's almost like the entire world gaslit themselves into thinking this guy is impregnable and cannot be stood up to. And even as we have learned over the past month that he's not, some still seem to be doing this.

He can still do a lot of bad, but people need to stiffen their spines a little more. The past month has told us that he's not a God.

This was very well stated. 

[romad1]

5 minutes ago, pfife said:

So not Bidens words?

Only if Biden raises it a notch with a Mama joke.

[pfife]

The media does/did the same thing with Trump.   No matter what anything his opponents do helps him.

[pfife]

Just now, romad1 said:

Only if Biden raises it a notch with a Mama joke.

Touche lol

[1984Echoes]

20 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Its really telling that his two biggest gaffes since this conflict (ie. "Putin is a war criminal", "Putin shouldn't remain") are things that I could have easily heard over the water cooler at work any day since 24 Feb.

Like you suggest, Putin has enough problems on his plate.

I particularly like your comparison to Reagan. 

It's apt.

[mtutiger]

14 minutes ago, pfife said:

The media does/did the same thing with Trump.   No matter what anything his opponents do helps him.

Totally. And not just opponents, but also the fact that his gaffes would be framed as being part of his appeal to the base and whatnot.

Very similar to how Putin gets treated in the press 

[romad1]

interesting thread

 

[ewsieg]

5 hours ago, pfife said:

Meanwhile in reality the opposite is happening

Actually, looks like that is exactly what is happening.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/how-biden-sparked-a-global-uproar-with-nine-ad-libbed-words-about-putin/ar-AAVxgGu?ocid=uxbndlbing

I agree with what you said earlier, Putin doesn't deserve to be in power.  That said, not everything in this world is just.  We may need to try and improve relations with a Putin run Russia in the future, and that will be more difficult now.  

That said, i'm hoping for a solution that allows us for improved Russian relations without Putin.

[mtutiger]

It appears that, to the surprise of (almost) no one, Biden's statement isn't the beginning of World War III. 

Edited March 27, 2022 by mtutiger

[mtutiger]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_Empire_speech#Speech

"Yes, let us pray for the salvation of all of those who live in that totalitarian darkness—pray they will discover the joy of knowing God. But until they do, let us be aware that while they preach the supremacy of the State, declare its omnipotence over individual man, and predict its eventual domination of all peoples on the earth, they are the focus of evil in the modern world .... So, in your discussions of the nuclear freeze proposals, I urge you to beware the temptation of pride—the temptation of blithely declaring yourselves above it all and label both sides equally at fault, to ignore the facts of history and the aggressive impulses of an evil empire, to simply call the arms race a giant misunderstanding and thereby remove yourself from the struggle between right and wrong and good and evil."

Ronald Reagan, 1983.

Somehow the world did not end after this speech. Nor will it after Biden's 

[mtutiger]

Interesting thread

Edited March 27, 2022 by mtutiger

[chasfh]

We can only hope that Putin doesn’t go pushing buttons before he goes out.

[pfife]

1 hour ago, ewsieg said:

Actually, looks like that is exactly what is happening.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/how-biden-sparked-a-global-uproar-with-nine-ad-libbed-words-about-putin/ar-AAVxgGu?ocid=uxbndlbing

I agree with what you said earlier, Putin doesn't deserve to be in power.  That said, not everything in this world is just.  We may need to try and improve relations with a Putin run Russia in the future, and that will be more difficult now.  

That said, i'm hoping for a solution that allows us for improved Russian relations without Putin.

I did a find on the word war in that article and it said nothing about us going to major war, which is what I said wasn't happening.  Im not interested in wasting time reading articles you post that you don't even read. 

Your gotchas are really bad.  Do better.  

 

 

[ewsieg]

11 hours ago, ewsieg said:

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/26/biden-says-putin-cannot-remain-in-power-in-sweeping-speech-on-russian-invasion-of-ukraine.html

Damn!  I mean, we all feel that way, but this is pretty bold to say.  I know many wondered if his 'Putin is a war criminal' was off the cuff, this comes in a scripted speech.

This is my post claiming it was bold, as I thought it was scripted at the time.  It still was bold regardless.  I'm still not claiming one way or the other if it's wrong.

10 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Right - at this point this is clearly not accidental. Biden oftimes speaks off the cuff, his admin doesn't do policy off the cuff, so for whatever reason they have decided to take this tack. Curious. I think history would argue personalizing international conflict is usually unproductive. I guess we'll see if there is some logic behind the strategy or whether they are losing their sense of Real Politick.

Gehringer responding in a way that seems to match up with what I initially posted/stated.

9 hours ago, Archie said:

The White House has to "walk back" yet another Biden senile comment. Its the second time in two days. The world is laughing at our leadership. Its sad that someone in his condition would be put in this position.  His words are going to get us in a major war and he doesn't even know what he's saying. 

Archie, who I rarely agree with, saying they are walking back the comments and blaming it on senile because that's what his media tells him to believe.

9 hours ago, pfife said:

Meanwhile in reality the opposite is happening

You claiming it's not happening.

3 hours ago, ewsieg said:

Actually, looks like that is exactly what is happening.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/how-biden-sparked-a-global-uproar-with-nine-ad-libbed-words-about-putin/ar-AAVxgGu?ocid=uxbndlbing

Quote

Biden’s line was not planned and came as a surprise to U.S. officials, according to a person familiar with the speech who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss a sensitive situation. In the immediate aftermath of the remark, reporters rushed to find Biden aides and seek clarity on the president seemingly supporting a regime change in Russia.

But Biden aides demurred, refusing to comment as they scrambled to craft a response.

 

Me, simply pointing out that new reports actually are stating that it was off of the cuff.  Going further, I added that I agreed with you that I really wasn't upset at Biden's comments, but noted there is a concern.

3 hours ago, ewsieg said:

I agree with what you said earlier, Putin doesn't deserve to be in power.  That said, not everything in this world is just.  We may need to try and improve relations with a Putin run Russia in the future, and that will be more difficult now.  

That said, i'm hoping for a solution that allows us for improved Russian relations without Putin.

and than you:

2 hours ago, pfife said:

I did a find on the word war in that article and it said nothing about us going to major war, which is what I said wasn't happening.  Im not interested in wasting time reading articles you post that you don't even read. 

Your gotchas are really bad.  Do better.  

I don't see where I mentioned war.  So maybe if you took the time to read what I post, instead of ignoring it, as you've stated multiple times you do, you'd have an idea what I was talking about. 

Edited March 27, 2022 by ewsieg