Where Do Things End With Vlad? (h/t romad1)

[romad1]

Thread

Not everything can be explained by our current systems analysis.  

[ewsieg]

2 hours ago, mtutiger said:

Do you think the average Ukrainian feels the same way that you, sitting from the comfort of your home in a country not being invaded, feels about this war?

Or are they pissed off that their imperialist, wannabe Czar next door invaded them and won't let them live in peace?

I think we all know the answer, even for the more Russian-speaking populations it's Door 2.

I'm sure they are pissed off, and they should be.  Note, i'm not saying we shouldn't be supporting this war and Ukraine, i'm just saying there is a very thin line between supporting them and using them as a proxy war.  

I realized I linked the wrong article above.  I think it referenced the one I linked and that's how that one got included, but it was about Boris Johnson's somewhat impromptu visit to Ukraine in April.  Now I can't find it.  It was reported back then that he warned Zelensky with many of the things you all have pointed out, for instance that you simply can't trust Putin.  There is nothing wrong with that.  It went further in saying that Johnson said that if they did sign a deal with Russia, he'd be risking western support going forward.  If true, I don't see him saying that without US awareness and agreement.   Also if true, kind of sounds like we want the proxy war and luckily, for now at least, that coincides with what Ukraine wants.

 

[mtutiger]

27 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

I'm sure they are pissed off, and they should be.  Note, i'm not saying we shouldn't be supporting this war and Ukraine, i'm just saying there is a very thin line between supporting them and using them as a proxy war.  

I realized I linked the wrong article above.  I think it referenced the one I linked and that's how that one got included, but it was about Boris Johnson's somewhat impromptu visit to Ukraine in April.  Now I can't find it.  It was reported back then that he warned Zelensky with many of the things you all have pointed out, for instance that you simply can't trust Putin.  There is nothing wrong with that.  It went further in saying that Johnson said that if they did sign a deal with Russia, he'd be risking western support going forward.  If true, I don't see him saying that without US awareness and agreement.   Also if true, kind of sounds like we want the proxy war and luckily, for now at least, that coincides with what Ukraine wants.

 

This is all fair.

But I do think with this conflict that there is probably a decent amount of good cop / bad cop going on. And to 84's point, Bucha kinda changed everything; even in that hypothetical, I'm not sure a negotiated peace would have lasted once Bucha would was discovered 

Edited September 11, 2022 by mtutiger

[gehringer_2]

31 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

Also if true, kind of sounds like we want the proxy war and luckily, for now at least, that coincides with what Ukraine wants.

Correct. No question that 3rd parties  - like the US - are also trying to shape the conflict to their own advantage. No denying that it is also a proxy war by which the US seeks to defang the threat we see in Putin for reasons completely apart from Ukraine's interest. That is just the real world. But when real-politik also happens to line up on the side of the angels, I can live with it.  

Edited September 11, 2022 by gehringer_2

[gehringer_2]

4 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

This is all fair.

But I do think with this conflict that there is probably a decent amount of good cop / bad cop going on. And to 84's point, Bucha kinda changed everything; even in that hypothetical, I'm not sure a negotiated peace would have lasted once Bucha would was discovered 

also a good point. The toothpaste doesn't go back in the tube. The relationship between Russia and Ukraine can now never go back to the status quo ante - at least while Putin lives.

[Jim Cowan]

This line about "Zelenskyy wanted to negotiate but Johnson talked him out of it" sounds like complete and utter bullshit to me.

[romad1]

The rumored third column of Ukraine's armor?  Lets hope they kick some ass!

[romad1]

16 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

This is all fair.

But I do think with this conflict that there is probably a decent amount of good cop / bad cop going on. And to 84's point, Bucha kinda changed everything; even in that hypothetical, I'm not sure a negotiated peace would have lasted once Bucha would was discovered 

The Rule of Law matters.   That's why we punish as well as we can a My Lai or the guys that Trump pardoned in the Navy SEALs.  Its not perfect but part of the product is the effort and the journey.   People who actually have discernment need to see that it matters.  

[romad1]

Lots of Russian trolls out today to sell that Russia is winning this.  Um, ok. 

[romad1]

this is fantastic. just wonderful stuff

 

[romad1]

Ukraine twitter today is all about the attack on the electrical grid by Russia

 

[Jim Cowan]

20 hours ago, romad1 said:

this is fantastic. just wonderful stuff

 

The right person, at the right time, at the right place.

[romad1]

Meanwhile,

Just ok... I mean I recognize the type.  The sort of people who rub elbows with dictators because they got caught with kiddie porn (Scott Ritter) or got fired by a black dude for being a lunatic (Mike Flynn).

[romad1]

I'm in favor of this, if true

Reports are going to lag.   Propaganda is out there indicating all sorts of big sweeping things that isn't necessarily so.   The most dangerous thing is people hearing some good news like this and then asking: "who will be in charge in Russia after the Ukrainians win?" 

That's like asking after the 1969 moon landings what life on Mars will be like. 

[romad1]

And the shit birds who are paid by Moscow to spread their shit...spread more shit

Quote

Conservative groups, including Heritage Action and Concerned Veterans for America, quickly urged lawmakers to reject the plea for additional aid.

Those are the enemies of peace and friends of Putin right there. 

[romad1]

For those who think the War in Ukraine distracts from the true threat from China

[Jim Cowan]

1 hour ago, romad1 said:

And the shit birds who are paid by Moscow to spread their shit...spread more shit

Those are the enemies of peace and friends of Putin right there. 

I love the name "Heritage Action", it makes me want to take the white sheet off my bed and cut two eye holes in it.

[romad1]

 

[romad1]

very enjoyable

 

[1984Echoes]

If you read this, read it to the...

very.

last.

sentence.

Russia post-war impact: https://www.yahoo.com/news/happens-russia-loses-081959272.html

[gehringer_2]

Pechorin 'falls' off his boat....

https://news.yahoo.com/putin-ally-falls-sea-adding-111159933.html

[Dan Gilmore]

Maybe the boat had an open window.

[mtutiger]

 

[romad1]

So, the atrocities and the war crimes....

[romad1]

This seems way too optimistic