romad1 Posted February 22, 2022 Posted February 22, 2022 On 2/22/2022 at 11:44 PM, buddha said: sanctions will come and then go. russia is exerting their power over a former client state. russia was weak and the us and its alliea expanded their military into formerly russian controlled territory, right to the borders of russia. russia is now pushing back because they arent as weak anymore. tale as old as time. Expand Thank you Donald Quote
buddha Posted February 23, 2022 Posted February 23, 2022 (edited) On 2/22/2022 at 11:57 PM, romad1 said: Thank you Donald Expand i dont need to explain different theories of international relations to you, you already know. i mean, youre aware that there are different interpretations as to how the US should respond. its not donald trump to not want war with russia. i'll leave that for you big iraq war supporters. figured you would have learned your lesson. Edited February 23, 2022 by buddha 1 Quote
romad1 Posted February 23, 2022 Posted February 23, 2022 On 2/23/2022 at 12:07 AM, buddha said: i dont need to explain different theories of international relations to you, you already know. i mean, youre aware that there are different interpretations as to how the US should respond. its not donald trump to not want war with russia. i'll leave that for you big iraq war supporters. figured you would have learned your lesson. Expand We certainly learned the lesson from 1945-1989 in Europe and 1953-now in Korea. Collective security works. It works really well when you have something to lose. Quote
buddha Posted February 23, 2022 Posted February 23, 2022 On 2/23/2022 at 12:12 AM, romad1 said: We certainly learned the lesson from 1945-1989 in Europe and 1953-now in Korea. Collective security works. It works really well when you have something to lose. Expand ukraine is not a part of our collective security alliance. we owe it nothing and we will provide it with nothing but moral support and maybe some cash money. we are not willing to go to war over the ukraine. you can insult me all you want, but you know its true. Quote
romad1 Posted February 23, 2022 Posted February 23, 2022 On 2/23/2022 at 12:18 AM, buddha said: ukraine is not a part of our collective security alliance. we owe it nothing and we will provide it with nothing but moral support and maybe some cash money. we are not willing to go to war over the ukraine. you can insult me all you want, but you know its true. Expand Supporting Ukraine = going to war. Ok I see you continue to call it "the Ukraine" as well. Quote
romad1 Posted February 23, 2022 Posted February 23, 2022 There is absolutely one way to correct Russia's behavior. Its to bleed him. Ukraine will do that. If we were ever going to have Russia join the civilized world. It has to change leadership. Quote
buddha Posted February 23, 2022 Posted February 23, 2022 On 2/23/2022 at 12:30 AM, romad1 said: Supporting Ukraine = going to war. Ok I see you continue to call it "the Ukraine" as well. Expand who cares if i call it ukraine or the ukraine? you can be insulting AND pedantic. congrats on your daily double. anyway, biden is doing what he should do within the boundaries of what is possible. Quote
romad1 Posted February 23, 2022 Posted February 23, 2022 On 2/23/2022 at 12:46 AM, Tiger337 said: The MLB. Expand Do they give expressed written permission or is that implied oral consent? Quote
gehringer_2 Posted February 23, 2022 Posted February 23, 2022 Nothing on the ground in Donbas has changed until Russian troops start crossing old lines of control. Do we see that yet? You still have to wonder how long before Putin's generals tell him he has to shit or get off the pot? And it's been in the 40s and 50s all week in Ukraine. Hard ground is slipping away. Quote
1984Echoes Posted February 23, 2022 Posted February 23, 2022 On 2/22/2022 at 2:39 AM, romad1 said: Germany and Poland would like a word about Kaliningrad as well. Expand Do it. Quote
1984Echoes Posted February 23, 2022 Posted February 23, 2022 On 2/22/2022 at 3:24 AM, ewsieg said: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10536311/Biden-phones-Zelensky-gathers-National-Security-team-Putin-speech.html Biden's first sanctions prohibit business with those two States that Russia has moved into. More apparently expected tomorrow, but the line I don't like is this: I hope that's a mistake and not the thinking of this administration. Putin remembers Obama's red line in Syria. He chose to cross it, the penalties should be just as severe as if he took the whole country. Might be the only chance to prevent him from taking it all if we do in fact hold him to our word. Expand IMO... I think Biden should immediately drop a moratorium on ANY American technology going to Russia. Their war materials depend on American technology, chips, etc... wherever high-tech is required, their machinery requires American made technology. Cut them off completely. No third countries to sell them American technology or they'd get sanctioned/ cut-off... No technology that USES American machinery or other technology to produce it. This would not have an immediate effect... but it would be a critical issue to Russia and have long lasting effects that... Putin exactly knows about. It would state immediately that we are serious and not F'ing around. Quote
1984Echoes Posted February 23, 2022 Posted February 23, 2022 On 2/22/2022 at 11:38 AM, romad1 said: Lets allow Ukraine to base its planes in Polish territory and support the war from there. Imagine how frustrated that would make Vladdie. It would be just like the Korean War, Vietnam War and Afghanistan where there was a no-go sanctuary for the superpower's foe. Expand I'm on board... Load up NATO troops into Poland, Romania, and eastern Germany as well... Quote
1984Echoes Posted February 23, 2022 Posted February 23, 2022 On 2/22/2022 at 8:26 PM, mtutiger said: There you go... he'd have just given Putin Ukraine on a silver platter... Expand Trump = the BIGGEST BOOT-LICKER on the planet. He still wants a Trump Tower Moscow so... of course he is a boot-licker. Quote
1984Echoes Posted February 23, 2022 Posted February 23, 2022 On 2/22/2022 at 8:26 PM, mtutiger said: There you go... he'd have just given Putin Ukraine on a silver platter... Expand PS: The way he just totally sucks up to Putin is beyond contemptible. And the Trumpers wanna spew some horse shit about what Donald MF'ing Trump would do to stand up to Russia? I mean, seriously? MTU is correct... he'd do nothing but freaking just roll over for his buddy Vlad. Quote
gehringer_2 Posted February 23, 2022 Posted February 23, 2022 (edited) On 2/23/2022 at 1:09 AM, 1984Echoes said: IMO... I think Biden should immediately drop a moratorium on ANY American technology going to Russia. Their war materials depend on American technology, chips, etc... wherever high-tech is required, their machinery requires American made technology. Cut them off completely. No third countries to sell them American technology or they'd get sanctioned/ cut-off... No technology that USES American machinery or other technology to produce it. This would not have an immediate effect... but it would be a critical issue to Russia and have long lasting effects that... Putin exactly knows about. It would state immediately that we are serious and not F'ing around. Expand the problem is that it doesn't matter what the US does if we can't pull Europe along. It's easy to talk about what the US should do unilaterally, but those actions are futile if we do them alone - the key is how far we can go and keep the team together. That is the GHWB bar that Biden needs to meet. That is where Putin is counting that the West will fail, and he will be free to make his side deals - esp with the Germans, etc. Edited February 23, 2022 by gehringer_2 Quote
1984Echoes Posted February 23, 2022 Posted February 23, 2022 On 2/23/2022 at 1:22 AM, gehringer_2 said: the problem is that it doesn't matter what the US does if we can't pull Europe along. It's easy to talk about what the US should do unilaterally, but those actions are futile if we do them alone - the key is how far we can go and keep the team together. That is the GHWB bar that Biden needs to meet. That is where Putin is counting that the West will fail, and he will be free to make his side deals - esp with the Germans, etc. Expand Oh I get that... But the US is still the Hammer. We have a lot of Big Sticks in the US that no one else has. Use them. I approve this message says Teddy Roosevelt. And Ronald Reagan. Quote
mtutiger Posted February 23, 2022 Posted February 23, 2022 On 2/23/2022 at 12:07 AM, buddha said: i'll leave that for you big iraq war supporters. figured you would have learned your lesson. Expand The only way the comparison to Iraq seems valid would be with respect to the country who seems to want to subjugate a country of 43 million where most of the residents seem to disapprove of them Quote
1984Echoes Posted February 23, 2022 Posted February 23, 2022 On 2/23/2022 at 1:22 AM, gehringer_2 said: the problem is that it doesn't matter what the US does if ... Expand The United States of HAMMER: https://news.yahoo.com/exclusive-punishing-putin-biden-could-171437620.html Quote
1984Echoes Posted February 23, 2022 Posted February 23, 2022 On 2/23/2022 at 2:19 AM, mtutiger said: The only way the comparison to Iraq seems valid would be with respect to the country who seems to want to subjugate a country of 43 million where most of the residents seem to disapprove of them Expand Yeah... Someone seems confused... Quote
mtutiger Posted February 23, 2022 Posted February 23, 2022 (edited) On 2/23/2022 at 2:26 AM, 1984Echoes said: Yeah... Someone seems confused... Expand Just to be clear, while I think this situation is a lot different than Georgia and Crimea in terms of scope and stakes, which may impact the severity of sanctions that are ultimately levied or the resolve of US/EU/NATO members, I understand people's skepticism based on that history. Its put up or shut up time for the west. What I dont really see is a path to a Russian-puppet government in Ukraine that doesn't inflict a large amount of damage in terms of blood and finances for Russia. It's one thing to claim South Ossetia, another to claim the 36th largest country in the world, especially where most of the country hates you. Iraq serves as a great example of that IMO. Edited February 23, 2022 by mtutiger Quote
romad1 Posted February 23, 2022 Posted February 23, 2022 FTR, It does appear Europe is unified. Quote
buddha Posted February 23, 2022 Posted February 23, 2022 On 2/23/2022 at 1:09 AM, 1984Echoes said: IMO... I think Biden should immediately drop a moratorium on ANY American technology going to Russia. Their war materials depend on American technology, chips, etc... wherever high-tech is required, their machinery requires American made technology. Cut them off completely. No third countries to sell them American technology or they'd get sanctioned/ cut-off... No technology that USES American machinery or other technology to produce it. This would not have an immediate effect... but it would be a critical issue to Russia and have long lasting effects that... Putin exactly knows about. It would state immediately that we are serious and not F'ing around. Expand the chinese love this plan. Quote
Jim Cowan Posted February 23, 2022 Posted February 23, 2022 Putin won't suffer personally from the sanctions, so I doubt that he will be deterred by them. They have been part of his calculation all along, and he doesn't care about hardships for other Russians. And he knows this with absolute certainty: the United States will not enter a shooting war over Ukraine under any circumstances, no matter what he does. If the sanctions cause enough dissatisfaction in the population to weaken his grip on power, he would notice that. But how likely is that to occur? Quote
buddha Posted February 23, 2022 Posted February 23, 2022 On 2/23/2022 at 2:19 AM, mtutiger said: The only way the comparison to Iraq seems valid would be with respect to the country who seems to want to subjugate a country of 43 million where most of the residents seem to disapprove of them Expand its valid because of the constraints on the us's ability (especially the us military's ability) to positively influence events in other countries. we try this time and time again and convince ourselves that every situation is the nazis and that we must act to protect or defend X or else its munich all over again. we'll just give them a democracy and vote and it will be all good! we should be using this ukraine crisis to do exactly what biden is doing: trying to shore up an atlantic alliance that was left in disarray aftee 4 years of trump. present a unified front in the face of russian aggression and use this time to build stronger ties with poland and our other eastern european allies. that's what he's doing, as far as i can see. but we aint fightin' russia and we probably aint arming ukraine either unless its done through some under the table proxy. and we shouldnt. sorry ukraine. Quote
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