gehringer_2 Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 1 hour ago, Jim Cowan said: 1914 or, especially, 1939. It certainly complicated by what breed of 'state' S. Vietnam was, but we certainly came to their aid in the context of the North trying to conquer them (or France's depending on how you take the history) MB notes Kuwait. We took a long time getting to it, but we did enter WWI without being attacked directly - Lusitania not withstanding. WWII would not count as we sat until we were attacked ourselves. There were a lot of Americans flying in SE Asia before Pearl Harbor, but it wasn't official. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 (edited) 12 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: Right, but the Ottoman Empire was basically Turkey and all the surrounding territory that it controlled. I don't think you can get around that with a technicality... It's not a technicality in that Ataturk founded Turkey on the the rejection of traditional quasi-religious Ottoman Sultanate/Caliphate and the early forms of Muslim pan nationalism that fed the religious pogroms. A lot has changed in Turkey on that point in recent years, and not for the better, but that is also part of the complexity. Of course the Turks and the Armenians still hate each other and that is as old as Islam itself. Edited February 25, 2022 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 1 hour ago, clark1mt said: When was the last time a friend or ally was invaded on a scale that said friend or ally required US assistance? This feels like it spun out on its wheels of historical inaccuracy. Does someone think the US doesn't help its allies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 53 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: but that is also part of the complexity, because 'Turkey' also didn't exist when the genocide occurred. And the Armenia that attacked Azerbaijan was allied with an evil regime in Putin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cowan Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said: It certainly complicated by what breed of 'state' S. Vietnam was, but we certainly came to their aid in the context of the North trying to conquer them (or France's depending on how you take the history) MB notes Kuwait. We took a long time getting to it, but we did enter WWI without being attacked directly - Lusitania not withstanding. WWII would not count as we sat until we were attacked ourselves. There were a lot of Americans flying in SE Asia before Pearl Harbor, but it wasn't official. I wouldn't count Vietnam, which I think was more about stepping in when the French quit in order to resist the spread of communism throughout SE Asia per the domino theory. I don't think it had anything to do with defending those friends the South Vietnamese. I might have to give you Kuwait, although clearly that was about oil and not coming to the defense of the poor Kuwaitis but nevertheless. I am rusty about WW1 but wasn't there a communication between Germany and Mexico which could be interpreted as a direct threat to the US? You are correct about individual Americans going to Canada and the UK to join up at the start of WW2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Tigeraholic1 said: Awful, The world is seeing just how evil Putin is… I have a handful of acquaintances (both on the left and right) who have made excuses or been fans of Putin over the years. Just seeing what they have posted on Facebook at times. I wonder if any of this is opening their eyes... or (gulp) if this is just part of the appeal Edited February 25, 2022 by mtutiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted February 25, 2022 Author Share Posted February 25, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 I’m for appeasement. Call up Putin and let him know we’ll shrink NATO by one if he retreats. Once he retreats, expel Germany and Italy while adding Moldova. Fire up those nuke plants Germany and deal with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said: I am rusty about WW1 but wasn't there a communication between Germany and Mexico which could be interpreted as a direct threat to the US Romad and Buddha are the history mavens, most I can say I know about WW1 is that there was a big deal made about having to defend freedom of navigation after a U-Boat torpedoed the Lusitania. Of course the Germans claimed Cunnard was ferrying war material. Just read a bit on the Zimmerman telegram - appears to have also have been a contributor. Of course it's a fool's errand trying to separate individual bits of motivation out from the totality of a decision like that. BTW -the family story is that Grandfather, who had enlisted because it was a chance to strike a blow against the Ottomans, was on a ship on the way over on 11/11/18, and thus got to step foot back in Europe only to get right back on the boat to the new world. Edited February 25, 2022 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 10 minutes ago, chasfh said: Tulsi isn’t wrong, it could have made a difference. Just as any one of us, if we just work hard, we could be billionaires soon. It could happen. If it was known Ukraine had no shot at NATO, and that was publicly stated, I do think that would have made it harder for China to turn its head like it has done. Still that doesn’t mean anything actually changes though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 2 minutes ago, mtutiger said: This was identified as a ballistic missile intercept. Notable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cowan Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 4 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: BTW -the family story is that Grandfather, who had enlisted because it was a chance to strike a blow against the Ottomans, was on a ship on the way over on 11/11/18, and thus got to step foot back in Europe only to get right back on the boat to the new world. Sounds like a nice trip! My family story is that my great uncle was a stretcher bearer at the Somme. Talk about stones! Naturally he got hit, was sent to a hospital in London...and the Canadian army stopped his pay! He was no longer on active service you see lol! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 2 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said: Sounds like a nice trip! My family story is that my great uncle was a stretcher bearer at the Somme. Talk about stones! Naturally he got hit, was sent to a hospital in London...and the Canadian army stopped his pay! He was no longer on active service you see lol! My Grandfather immigrated to the US in early 1900s from London where he was superfluous to needs for the family business of running a gambling hall. Anyway...he gets here, goes through WWI hearing all about his English brothers fighting in the trenches and then signs up and heads to France where he arrives on Armistice Day -- very similar to G2's story. So, the family story was that he signed up on Armistice Day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 12 minutes ago, romad1 said: This was identified as a ballistic missile intercept. Notable. BUT, there was this as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cowan Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 14 minutes ago, romad1 said: So, the family story was that he signed up on Armistice Day. Ha ha. "Shrewd" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 1 hour ago, romad1 said: And the Armenia that attacked Azerbaijan was allied with an evil regime in Putin. I've never been interested enough to pursue the history myself, or verify any of these claims, but at least in the view of my family, the area around Yerevon, which is where the current nation of Armenia is, following from the Russian designation of its Soviet Republic, was not really that much the center of the Armenian culture of the Ottoman empire, which my family would have told you had been in Anatolia and Mediterranean Turkey. As far as my family saw it, those up in the Caucusus were the equivalent of Armenian Hillbillies.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 This is trending on Twitter. Rumors that a single Ukraine fighter took down 6 Russian jets. No idea if it’s real, I’m rooting him on regardless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigeraholic1 Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.TaterSalad Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 6 hours ago, Jim Cowan said: The Russians can install a government, but the people will be ungovernable. Wouldn't they be trying to assassinate whoever gets installed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.TaterSalad Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 What are the odds this sinks the Russian economy into a full-scale depression long-term because they overextend themselves and the Ruble crashes completely? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 10 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said: Wouldn't they be trying to assassinate whoever gets installed? If the goal isn't to take all of Ukraine for itself, but rather setup a puppet government like Belarus, my guess is that they are hoping this shock and awe campaign would keep the citizens at bay as they know if they overthrown the government, Russia might just walk right back in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 15 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said: Wouldn't they be trying to assassinate whoever gets installed? Something like that. A demilitarized puppet state would risk rapid collapse the moment Russia pulled troops out. Think Ashraf Ghani's Afghan government Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 5 minutes ago, ewsieg said: If the goal isn't to take all of Ukraine for itself, but rather setup a puppet government like Belarus, my guess is that they are hoping this shock and awe campaign would keep the citizens at bay as they know if they overthrown the government, Russia might just walk right back in. That may be the hope, but it seems delusional Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cowan Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 27 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said: Wouldn't they be trying to assassinate whoever gets installed? Oh I would think so. I think that the closest historical parallel is the invasion of Crete by Germany in 1940, the first and possibly only successful invasion by paratroopers in history against a garrison of Brits and Anzacs, first class fighting men who were not well-led, and from whom Ultra intelligence was withheld. When the Fallschirmjagers landed on the ground they were astonished to find themselves being pitchforked by Cretan villagers, men and women, defending their home against invaders. Just as they had done for centuries, against invaders like the Venetians and Romans and Turks. It was just totally against the Germans' expectations of battlefield chivalry in which only uniformed combatants participated. That's what will happen in Ukraine. First, the Ukrainian partisans will kill all of the collaborators and informers and sympathizers. Then the ambushes and sabotage will be relentless. And now here is the preamble to the key question: will Putin order reprisals on the scale that Hitler did? I think that he will. So every time that a railroad is blown up a couple of local officials will be executed. Every time that a Russian soldier is killed, 10 random locals will be shot. For particularly egregious examples of resistance, an entire rural village will be entered, all of the men rounded up and shot, and all of the houses burned. That's the Nazi playbook. Will Putin follow it? Yes, and not give it a second thought. But now the key question: how will Russian soldiers feel about being ordered to commit those atrocities against Ukrainians, will they willingly comply? I have my doubts about that. The average Russian soldier isn't a KGB flunky from the 1980's, like Putin. I don't think that shooting Ukrainian citizens who are bound and gagged is what they signed up for. Perhaps some mutinies in occupied territory might stir some unrest at home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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