1984Echoes Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 (edited) 45 minutes ago, buddha said: why do you think this is all Putin? Because it is all Putin. Edited March 1, 2022 by 1984Echoes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted March 1, 2022 Author Share Posted March 1, 2022 If only Ukraine had given up their country to Mother Russia and the US had unilaterally pulled NATO out of everywhere east of the old West Germany, none of this would have happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 3 minutes ago, chasfh said: Putin wants some things from Russia that Putin does not have? Xi wants the things from Russia. Sorry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted March 1, 2022 Author Share Posted March 1, 2022 Just now, romad1 said: Xi wants the things from Russia. Sorry Ah, yes, sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 19 minutes ago, 1776 said: Zelensky: “A state that commits war crimes against civilians can’t be a member of the U.N. Security Council.” Pretty much says it all. Russia never filed the paperwork. Kick them out. On a paperwork technicality would also be hilarious. And it's true. Proper paperwork was never filed for Russia after the demise of the Soviet Union. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 5 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: Because it is all Putin. Yeah, how is it not? We were warm toward Yeltsin. That vestigal support for corrupt but lovable Boris was what kept us from smelling how bad Vladdie was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 There was a huge uncertainty factor with Vladdie as well, when he first came to power. After 2014, that uncertainty was completely gone. In 2022, Putin has gone WAY over the line. We are not repeating 2014. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 29 minutes ago, buddha said: you dont know that. and there are other interests within russia who are likely in favor of moving against ukraine before it moved into nato's orbit, dont you think? actually I'd question that. Putin runs a kleptocracy, the politics are not important to the Russian Oligarchs - they support Putin because he's made them rich, not because they care where the lines on the maps are. A war like Putin appears to be planning will do nothing to add to their pockets and is starting out to do quite the contrary. Putin's ruminations are anachronistic, why would they appeal to any of his modern money men? Nobody did well under the Soviet empire but the apparatchiks - certainly nothing like what the oligarchs have achieved. And their self image is more along the lines of playboy of the western world. So no, I don't really see the logic of there being some great movement in Russian society to rebuild the empire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 3 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: actually I'd question that. Putin runs a kleptocracy, the politics are not important to the Russian Oligarchs - they support Putin because he's made them rich, not because they care where the lines on the maps are. A war like Putin appears to be planning will do nothing to add to their pockets and is starting out to do quite the contrary. Putin's ruminations are anachronistic, why would they appeal to any of his modern money men? Nobody did well under the Soviet empire but the apparatchiks - certainly nothing like what the oligarchs have achieved. And their self image is more along the lines of playboy of the western world. So no, I don't really see the logic of there being some great movement in Russian society to rebuild the empire. where does "great movement in russian society" come from? not from me. but to think there is only one person involved in machinations and decision making in a country as large and with so many internal departments as russia is naive, imo. you dont have to be a democracy to have factions within the decison making apparatus. and again, you seem to have this idea that russia's ideas of its place in the world are somehow misguided because they dont align with our version of ourselves as benign actors only out for the good of democracy and freedom, and that "liberal democracy" is the obvious goal of every nation on earth. i doubt russia (or china) share those goals. and they react differently to what they see as provocations, which we see as "freedom loving people making a democratic choice to love freedom." i'm not on russia's side and i would really like to see them lose (or be drawn into a quagmire that further strips their legitimacy) but i do their actions differently than you apparently do. i dont think its some sort of vanity play, i think its their attempt to reassert influence and protect themselves from a perceived threat (us). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 at the very least, this has served to awaken europe from its peaceful slumber underneath america's nuclear umbrella. NOW do you believe us, germany? why we had to warn you - of all countries - about russia is bizarre. but years of your peace guaranteed by our money and our army have made you blind to reality. i doubt japan has any such illusions anymore. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 33 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: Russia never filed the paperwork. Kick them out. On a paperwork technicality would also be hilarious. And it's true. Proper paperwork was never filed for Russia after the demise of the Soviet Union. that's interesting. They're definitely different countries, just ask Pootin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 This was astounding. When i saw this I immediately referred to a colleague who has a bit more experience They told their troops this was an exercise and prepared accordingly. Hence the troop's lack of discipline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 This is a remarkable thread My colleague who made a career of following low-level Russian ops says "nothing surprises me" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted March 1, 2022 Author Share Posted March 1, 2022 12 minutes ago, romad1 said: This was astounding. When i saw this I immediately referred to a colleague who has a bit more experience They told their troops this was an exercise and prepared accordingly. Hence the troop's lack of discipline. The Army That Couldn’t Shoot Straight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted March 1, 2022 Author Share Posted March 1, 2022 As much as we gloat at the seeming incompetence of the Russian military so far (this couldn’t really be some sort of ninja-level con, could it?), thousands of Ukrainian civilians are still dying at their hands, and it seems likely to only escalate from here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 6 minutes ago, chasfh said: As much as we gloat at the seeming incompetence of the Russian military so far (this couldn’t really be some sort of ninja-level con, could it?), thousands of Ukrainian civilians are still dying at their hands, and it seems likely to only escalate from here. It would and could be worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1776 Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 Center Fiona Hill discussing a 2019 meeting between Trump and Putin. Interesting. “Putin tried to warn Trump about this, but I don’t think Trump figured out what he was saying. In one of the last meetings between Putin and Trump when I was there, Putin was making the point that: ‘Well you know, Donald, we have these hypersonic missiles.’ And Trump was saying, ‘Well, we will get them too.’ Putin was saying, ‘Well, yes, you will get them eventually, but we’ve got them first.'” “There was a menace in this exchange,” she continued. “Putin was putting us on notice that if push came to shove in some confrontational environment that the nuclear option would be on the table.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 11 minutes ago, 1776 said: Center Fiona Hill discussing a 2019 meeting between Trump and Putin. Interesting. “Putin tried to warn Trump about this, but I don’t think Trump figured out what he was saying. In one of the last meetings between Putin and Trump when I was there, Putin was making the point that: ‘Well you know, Donald, we have these hypersonic missiles.’ And Trump was saying, ‘Well, we will get them too.’ Putin was saying, ‘Well, yes, you will get them eventually, but we’ve got them first.'” “There was a menace in this exchange,” she continued. “Putin was putting us on notice that if push came to shove in some confrontational environment that the nuclear option would be on the table.” meanwhile his soldiers are operating with terrible opsec and surrendering in bunches Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1776 Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 4 minutes ago, romad1 said: meanwhile his soldiers are operating with terrible opsec and surrendering in bunches which would make one wonder if/when he would get desperate enough to do something radically stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 3 minutes ago, 1776 said: which would make one wonder if/when he would get desperate enough to do something radically stupid. I think he is going to level some cities. Its going to be awful. The emotional tug on us will be powerful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMRivdogs Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 FWIW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 6 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: woah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 8 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: lol. turkey is like, wtf? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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