Where Do Things End With Vlad? (h/t romad1)

[CMRivdogs]

 

[Hongbit]

I still think the way to go is to put pressure on the billionaire oligarchs. Essentially blackmail them into being our asserts.  Give them the horrible choice or having everything seized and losing it all unless they can find  a way to lead the charge inside Moscow to overthrow Putin and stop the war.  If successful, they can keep all the money, yachts and luxury apartments in Miami and NYC.   If they fail, they will probably be executed by Putin and we seize all their assets anyway

Edited March 2, 2022 by Hongbit

[mtutiger]

 

[gehringer_2]

6 hours ago, buddha said:

and again, you seem to have this idea that russia's ideas of its place in the world are somehow misguided because they dont align with our version of ourselves as benign actors only out for the good of democracy and freedom, and that "liberal democracy" is the obvious goal of every nation o

I'll return the favor a say you are over reading what I'm saying..

Your question was - or I least I read it as - is this happening because Putin or is he just being swept along a larger current of Russian cultural/political imperative. Or more simply, if Putin was not running Russia, would this be happening? To that question I come down pretty solid that I believe there is a very good chance - at least better than 50/50, that it would not. But since Putin suppresses open discussion in his country no question it's harder to tell, but that in itself argues a fair chance of disassociation  twixt the tyrant and the population - wouldn't you think? Now if you want to argue that the animal spirits in the Russian national soul could not have produced any leader less fixed on the restoration of empire, then of course the conclusion would be - "it's not all Putin", but I'd disagree with that - Russia has produced a number of semi-reformist leaders - Krushchev in his own odd way - Yeltsin, Gorbachev, so it's not an impossibility.

[buddha]

1 minute ago, gehringer_2 said:

I'll return the favor a say you are over reading what I'm saying..

Your question was - or I least I read it as - is this happening because Putin or is he just being swept along a larger current of Russian cultural/political imperative. Or more simply, if Putin was not running Russia, would this be happening? To that question I come down pretty solid that I believe there is a very good chance - at least better than 50/50, that it would not. But since Putin suppresses open discussion in his country no question it's harder to tell, but that in itself argues a fair chance of disassociation  twixt the tyrant and the population - wouldn't you think? Now if you want to argue that the animal spirits in the Russian national soul could not have produced any leader less fixed on the restoration of empire, then of course the conclusion would be - "it's not all Putin", but I'd disagree with that - Russia has produced a number of semi-reformist leaders - Krushchev in his own odd way - Yeltsin, Gorbachev, so it's not an impossibility.

has russia produced any non-reformist, expansionist leaders other than vladimir putin?  

and - again - i was saying i thinknit is likely that this is not ALL putin, because none of us know the inner workings of the russian leadership hierarchy, no matter what twitter tells us.  i imagine there are people in the army and russia's foreign policy apparatus who believe in its need to expand and protect its borders other than just putin ,as  you appear to be suggesting.

however, i dont really know.  but i think its a strong possibility.

[romad1]

He's got some details different than what I had thought.  I don't necessarily agree that the Russians didn't have their phones.   They have made a hash of this because this was all Putin listening to his "mypillow guy" (i.e., advisors who tell him what he wants to hear) who fed his vainsanity which resulted in a bloody mess. 

[romad1]

i have doubts... but maybe.   There are just as many adrenaline junkies among our veterans as the Russians have Chechens and Wagner contractors

 

[gehringer_2]

5 hours ago, CMRivdogs said:

FWIW

 

this is a thing to consider. So no matter how bad morale was among US troops in 'Nam, you weren't going to find may US soldiers ready to desert by walking into the jungle and looking for a handshake from the VC. OTOH, how hard will it be for a young Russian who feels he's been deceived to walk into the Ukrainian countryside and share a vodka over his sob story?

[romad1]

yes, good. 

[romad1]

I have my doubts about this as well

Cool if true

[pfife]

 

[1984Echoes]

2 hours ago, mtutiger said:

Got some inside info

From Russia's KGB no less...

[gehringer_2]

28 minutes ago, buddha said:

has russia produced any non-reformist, expansionist leaders other than vladimir putin?  

and - again - i was saying i thinknit is likely that this is not ALL putin, because none of us know the inner workings of the russian leadership hierarchy, no matter what twitter tells us.  i imagine there are people in the army and russia's foreign policy apparatus who believe in its need to expand and protect its borders other than just putin ,as  you appear to be suggesting.

however, i dont really know.  but i think its a strong possibility.

was it Churchill's line "a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma," 

[gehringer_2]

2 minutes ago, romad1 said:

I have my doubts about this as well

Cool if true

yeah - it would be a great seed of paranoia to sow wouldn't it?

[1984Echoes]

1 hour ago, Hongbit said:

I still think the way to go is to put pressure on the billionaire oligarchs. Essentially blackmail them into being our asserts.  Give them the horrible choice or having everything seized and losing it all unless they can find  a way to lead the charge inside Moscow to overthrow Putin and stop the war.  If successful, they can keep all the money, yachts and luxury apartments in Miami and NYC.   If they fail, they will probably be executed by Putin and we seize all their assets anyway

They are parking their superyachts in the Maldives, which has no extradition.

Bomb them, sabotage them, sink them.

I could care less about the Maldives protection scheme.

[romad1]

3 minutes ago, pfife said:

 

they seem nice

[1984Echoes]

6 minutes ago, romad1 said:

I have my doubts about this as well

Cool if true

And if not...

Wicked, wicked, wicked Propaganda (with a capital P) on the part of Ukraine.

[pfife]

1 minute ago, 1984Echoes said:

And if not...

Wicked, wicked, wicked Propaganda (with a capital P) on the part of Ukraine.

this doesn't seem like their first rodeo

[1984Echoes]

36 minutes ago, buddha said:

has russia produced any non-reformist, expansionist leaders other than vladimir putin?  

and - again - i was saying i thinknit is likely that this is not ALL putin...

You do realize that there are numerous examples in history, in which a strongman yanked his nation in any direction he pleased. Do you not even recognize this?

Where did Mussolini yank Italy? 

Did anyone in Germany defy Hitler? No matter how depraved, idiotic, or murderous his orders, they did exactly as he ordered.

Have you ever heard the names Castro, Chavez, Kim, Maduro, Duterte, Jinping, Xedong?

People follow orders because they fear the leader. No matter if generals, security forces, whatever.

This is all Putin. And you don't recognize it.

[romad1]

13 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

yeah - it would be a great seed of paranoia to sow wouldn't it?

Audience of one

[romad1]

 

[1984Echoes]

1 minute ago, romad1 said:

 

We need more of that in America...

For all our Putin Boot-Lickers...

Including Boot-Licker #1.

[romad1]

But it was good that they had a dominant autocrat to guide them because of the unique nature of their nation which it is wrong to judge using the standards of Civilization

 

[Jim Cowan]

38 minutes ago, pfife said:

 

Ha ha, the guy on the right looks like Greg Marmalard.

[romad1]

Yeah, World Historical Genius Vladdie.