Where Do Things End With Vlad? (h/t romad1)

[mtutiger]

Again, Mearsheimer spends a great deal of time drawing comparisons to Iraq, a country we invaded and attempted to install a democracy despite no real evidence it was seeking one, and Ukraine, a country that, upon independence in 1991, that has attempted on it's own volition to build democratic institutions. And however flawed the process has been, they have continued working at it and clearly see that as their way forward.

And the reality, as we are now seeing in this current conflict, is that the Ukrainians were never going to see themselves as potted plants who don't have agency. After watching Mearsheimer's comments and reading this interview, I am no clearer as to why that is the fault of the United States or why Ukrainians shouldn't have a say in their own self-determination.

Edited March 2, 2022 by mtutiger

[buddha]

16 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Again, Mearsheimer spends a great deal of time drawing comparisons to Iraq, a country we invaded and attempted to install a democracy despite no real evidence it was seeking one, and Ukraine, a country that, upon independence in 1991, that has attempted on it's own volition to build democratic institutions. And however flawed the process has been, they have continued working at it and clearly see that as their way forward.

And the reality, as we are now seeing in this current conflict, is that the Ukrainians were never going to see themselves as potted plants who don't have agency. After watching Mearsheimer's comments and reading this interview, I am no clearer as to why that is the fault of the United States or why Ukrainians shouldn't have a say in their own self-determination.

he was asked about iraq.  and iraq is part of a larger criticism about us policy after the fall of the soviet union.

i dont think its the fault of the united states, but i also dont think its a glory mission forced on russia by one dude who is crazy (which appears to be the standard narrative).  i think there are strategic reasons why russia has done what it did.  some of those reasons may have been because of the actions of the west in nato.

as to your last point, i dont think he says its not ukraine's "right" to do what it thinks is best  but that there are consequences for those decisions, and when you live next to russia and you have the historical ties between the two areas, you should be careful about poking the bear.  

i think where he would most differ with most americans is our idea of ourselves as defenders of liberal democracies and spreaders of democracy.  he sees that as flim flam.  i dont.  i think its an important part of how we see ourselves and how some others see us (but not as many as we think).  

let's see what russia negotiates with ukraine.  he thinks they will want regime change in ukraine and will keep donbass as independent (controlled by russia of course), but that they have no interest in taking over and occupying the whole country.  we'll see if he's right.

[mtutiger]

12 minutes ago, buddha said:

he was asked about iraq.  and iraq is part of a larger criticism about us policy after the fall of the soviet union.

He was asked about it and, again, seemed to set up a comparison. Despite this situation being significantly different, both in terms of who is the aggressor here as well as our actual level of involvement.

14 minutes ago, buddha said:

as to your last point, i dont think he says its not ukraine's "right" to do what it thinks is best  but that there are consequences for those decisions, and when you live next to russia and you have the historical ties between the two areas, you should be careful about poking the bear.  

I'll concede that he may not make a judgment on whether Ukraine has the right

But it must be nice to sit a cushy office in Chicago and tell those Ukrainians what's best for them. Despite the fact that they have a lot more skin in the game than he (or any of us) do.

[romad1]

Sorry you are suffering but Vladimir Putin is merely serving the historical forces which require Russia to have an autocrat which according to some is a legitimate for of government among many types.

[chasfh]

2 hours ago, Archie said:

Im sure you know what Im saying.  It takes a lot of courage to stand up to the toughest kid in town. If we had a strong and fearful leader then Putin wouldn't dare challenge him. We don't have that so Putin is walking all over Biden.  This isn't just about Russia and Ukraine.  Putin is showing the world and specifically Biden and the US he's the toughest kid on the block and he's running the show.  He's even threatening us with nukes.  

Again, you are not answering the question. You're merely whining about Biden and fluffing Putin.

I'm a give you one more chance: what specific actions do you think any American President, no matter who it is, could have taken to effectively prevent Putin from invading Ukraine and avoiding war?

[ewsieg]

1 hour ago, Tiger337 said:

Can you give us an example of a strong respected leader?  

My guess is that the only two that he believes are currently strong enough are Trump and Stone Cold Steve Austin.  

[mtutiger]

 

[romad1]

1 minute ago, mtutiger said:

 

awww...

Turn that sucker into an aircraft carrier. 

[chasfh]

12 minutes ago, romad1 said:

Sorry you are suffering but Vladimir Putin is merely serving the historical forces which require Russia to have an autocrat which according to some is a legitimate for of government among many types.

Soldiers tend to come from the same social class that gets rolled over the hardest when things go upside down as much as Putin has caused Russia to in just the last week. I don't know whether that means mass defections among the rank and file from the Russian armed forces in protest, but that's got to be in play at least somewhat now.

We were worried about Russian Army saboteurs stealing Ukrainian civilian clothes and blending in so they could commit murderous mayhem, but it's starting to feel more likely that Russian Army defectors may steal Ukrainian civilian clothes and blend in so they can flee to Poland.

Edited March 2, 2022 by chasfh

[romad1]

[points at nose]

[romad1]

Oh, this is a correct angle

I think China's play acting should be humored in the nature of peace but it has to be real.    I think sanctifying the inviolability of national borders ain't in their interest unless they can create a fiction about Taiwan. 

[Tigerbomb13]

This may sound like a dumb question, but in regards to all the companies pulling business from Russia: does this mean say, someone can’t stream Netflix or buy a car as a customer, or would this be something more business related?

Edited March 2, 2022 by Tigerbomb13

[romad1]

9 minutes ago, Tigerbomb13 said:

This may sound like a dumb question, but in regards to all the companies pulling business from Russia: does this mean say, someone can’t stream Netflix or buy a car as a customer, or would this be something more business related?

Yes

[CMRivdogs]

59 minutes ago, romad1 said:

awww...

Turn that sucker into an aircraft carrier. 

Use it to house Ukrainian refugees  

[mtutiger]

1 hour ago, romad1 said:

awww...

Turn that sucker into an aircraft carrier. 

I'm apparently out of touch, did not realize that there were such things as $600 million dollar yachts.

[mtutiger]

 

[Tigeraholic1]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

Soldiers tend to come from the same social class that gets rolled over the hardest when things go upside down as much as Putin has caused Russia to in just the last week. 

You do realize that 90% of the U.S. ground forces (Army/Marines) are Red Hat Republicans. 

[romad1]

1 hour ago, mtutiger said:

 

It is worth a moment's reflection on this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alisher_Usmanov#Portfolio_investments

Quote

Portfolio investments

In 2009 Facebook’s founder and chief executive, Mark Zuckerberg turned to the Russian investors at a meeting brokered by Goldman Sachs. Usmanov made his first investment to Facebook in 2009 by Mail.ru, investing $200 million for a 1.96-percent stake that valued Facebook at $10 billion. He accepted Zuckerberg’s conditions and gave up the voting rights on those shares to him.^[39][40]

Facebook’s IPO in 2012 valued it several times and selling his stakes Usmanov won around $1 billion on it.^[26][41]

In 2011 the DST made $800m investment to Twitter.^[42]

Through Mail.Ru Group Usmanov made notable investments in other international technology companies, including Groupon, Zynga, Airbnb, ZocDoc, Alibaba and 360buy.^[43]

In 2013, he was said to have invested $100 million in Apple.^[44] He subsequently disposed of his shares in early 2014.^[45]

The Alibaba investment was said by Usmanov to be up 500% in late 2014. The Facebook investment Usmanov implied he had sold, saying "I admire Facebook, but I said 'arrivederci' Facebook". At the same time, he said he had made an investment in "Chinese low-cost smartphone maker Xiaomi", saying it is a "future technology giant", and that he is looking to invest in India, particularly the online trade sector.^[46]

In September 2018, it was reported that Mail.ru would enter into a $2 billion joint venture with Alibaba Group Holding Ltd.^[47] The agreement would merge the online marketplaces of both companies in the Russian market and was backed by the Kremlin via the Russian Direct Investment Fund.^[48]

Kommersant and media firms

Who knew Zuckerberg had such Russian friends?

[chasfh]

4 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

You do realize that 90% of the U.S. ground forces (Army/Marines) are Red Hat Republicans. 

Yes, I do know that.

Edited March 2, 2022 by chasfh

[Tiger337]

3 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

You do realize that 90% of the U.S. ground forces (Army/Marines) are Red Hat Republicans. 

I think both you and Chas are correct here.  

[romad1]

3 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Yes, I do know that.

That is not true.  What percentage of the ground forces are whites?   Start at that number. 

[romad1]

5 minutes ago, romad1 said:

That is not true.  What percentage of the ground forces are whites?   Start at that number. 

I think most professional military embrace the melting pot.  There are the bone heads who cling to their racist comforts but that stuff tends to dissipate in combat when you find out that some of those people you had prejudice against actually fight like wildcats. 

[Tigeraholic1]

7 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I think both you and Chas are correct here.  

That means the men and women that most on here despise are our only line of defense. Not saying people are wrong to have those views of them but it’s just ironic to think about.
 

 

[chasfh]

9 minutes ago, romad1 said:

That is not true.  What percentage of the ground forces are whites?   Start at that number. 

I didn't come up with the 90% red hat number. That was someone else. I was agreeing on the assumption of an exaggeration for effect. I wouldn't bet money that the actual number is nine-zero.

I was talking about economics in any event, that most ground force militaries derive their members from those communities of economically modest means. The same kind of guys who are on the ground for Russia right now. It turns out those guys may have even less to come home to after all this.

[mtutiger]

13 minutes ago, romad1 said:

That is not true.  What percentage of the ground forces are whites?   Start at that number. 

Yeah, it leans R but probably more like 65/35, not 90/10.

Related, iirc, but some of the precincts with the decent swings away from Trump 2016-2020 (per the NYT precinct map) are places with military bases. Places like Fort Bliss, Fort Sill, Fort Hood, etc.