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Where Do Things End With Vlad? (h/t romad1)


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6 hours ago, buddha said:

its not a problem for the united states to solve.

But since we are the world leader (by past reputation-only at this point...) in promoting Democracy...

I am fully on board with the U.S. having a massive say in what happens in Ukraine. They want freedom. They want Democracy. They want the EU and NATO. They do not want Putin's fascist dictatorship.

So we can provide weapons, sanction the F out of Putin/ Russia/ oligarchs, we can yank Russia out of SWIFT (Germany opposes that; but they are tied to the hip economically with Russia (read: Russia's oil and gas)), I would bulk up our forces like crazy in Poland and Romania and the Black Sea. 

I'm sick of Putin's belligerence and attacks (cyber) on the U.S. and other western democracies. And he has attacked the U.S., he is not innocent of that. 

I'm glad Biden is standing up to him in a big way. I would do everything possible (which I believe he is doing) short of a direct war between the U.S. and Russia to thwart Putin's designs.

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15 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

That doesn't do it for me.

I prefer to be a little more plain and to the point: He's a Russian Stooge. Just like TFG was, boot-licking Putin hoping to get a Trump Tower Moscow. Carlson has taken over for TFG as Putin's Official Boot-Licker.

Clearly the Foxnews advertisers don't like democracy. 

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I hope so.  I realize the safe play for Ukraine would be to fold and not suffer what could be tens of thousands of deaths. 

But, I want them to fight.  I want them to bleed Russia.  The only way we get rid of Putin is if Russia suffers like the Soviets did in Afghanistan.

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No... the smart play is still to declare Permanent Neutrality.

But the flipside is that that is not necessarily the safe play because Putin may have no respect for them regardless.

So may be it's smarter to tough it out and maintain progress towards Democracy, the West, the EU, and NATO...

But what I want... is for Russia to back down in the face of a united front against them.

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2 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

No... the smart play is still to declare Permanent Neutrality.

But the flipside is that that is not necessarily the safe play because Putin may have no respect for them regardless.

So may be it's smarter to tough it out and maintain progress towards Democracy, the West, the EU, and NATO...

But what I want... is for Russia to back down in the face of a united front against them.

Nobody respects France after 1940 even though they may have had a great story about heroic resistance fighters bravely standing up to the Germans from June 1940 to the liberation of Paris in August 1944. 

The UK -- largely owing to its geography --and the boffins who invented radar -- and its ability to draw on the Commonwealth for reserve space was able to save its national dignity despite horrible defeats all the way up to El Alamein in November 1942. 

Both suffered greatly.   Ukraine's geography is very similar to France's unfortunately: land border in abundance with a hostile actor who out numbers and out guns them.   But, they appear to want to fight.  To make their story known. 

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If it comes to war, here is what I hope for:

Ukraine holds off Russian forces, and makes them pay dearly as you've stated.

Poland and Lithuania declare war on Russia as an existential threat and invade Kaliningrad and Byelorussia; and Romania send 40,000 troops to Ukraine in support...

Stalemate. Putin backs off.

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1 hour ago, romad1 said:

I hope so.  I realize the safe play for Ukraine would be to fold and not suffer what could be tens of thousands of deaths. 

But, I want them to fight.  I want them to bleed Russia.  The only way we get rid of Putin is if Russia suffers like the Soviets did in Afghanistan.

Ukrainians defending Ukraine is how it should go if it comes to it. The $64,000 question is what kind of casualty tolerance does the Russian public or even the Russian General Staff have? But the West can't regard neutrality as a failure if it's at any point available because it's certainly better for Ukraine not to suffer the bloodshed & destruction. Putin is mortal, he will dead soon enough.

Edited by gehringer_2
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1 hour ago, romad1 said:

Nobody respects France after 1940 even though they may have had a great story about heroic resistance fighters bravely standing up to the Germans from June 1940 to the liberation of Paris in August 1944. 

The UK -- largely owing to its geography --and the boffins who invented radar -- and its ability to draw on the Commonwealth for reserve space was able to save its national dignity despite horrible defeats all the way up to El Alamein in November 1942. 

Both suffered greatly.   Ukraine's geography is very similar to France's unfortunately: land border in abundance with a hostile actor who out numbers and out guns them.   But, they appear to want to fight.  To make their story known. 

the ukraine would get crushed by russia.  its a big open field.  there would be little resistance as half the country is pro-russia, which happens to be the part of the part of the country next to russia.  most likely would be a split government initially that russia would use as a satellite state.

and no country on earth has won more recorded battles than the french...1940 aside (which they also could have won with better leadership...).

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5 hours ago, buddha said:

the ukraine would get crushed by russia.  its a big open field.  there would be little resistance as half the country is pro-russia, which happens to be the part of the part of the country next to russia.  most likely would be a split government initially that russia would use as a satellite state.

and no country on earth has won more recorded battles than the french...1940 aside (which they also could have won with better leadership...).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity

Perhaps there is enough fight in the Ukrainian people where this won't be a bloodless walkover. 

Quote

Liberals, centrists, right-wing and left-wing people stood together during Maidan events. Therefore, it is very difficult to ideologically define “Maidan values”. Obviously, Maidan stood for freedom, human rights, justice and the rule of law, inclusion of the people in determining Ukraine’s foreign policy vector. Maidan stood against injustice and authoritarianism; against turning Ukrainian society and the state into an “object”. This is what is now called “deep society” as opposed to “deep state”.

It is unavoidable that some social groups or individual citizens get burnt out. But Maidan, as a prototype of a self-organized, value-oriented civil society, clearly defeats authoritarianism. This fight, however, is not only hard to stop but also incredibly difficult to complete. It goes on and will last for a very long time.

https://ukraineworld.org/articles/ukraine-explained/6-years-after-killings-maidan-protesters-ukraine-still-committed-maidan-values

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9 hours ago, romad1 said:

I hope so.  I realize the safe play for Ukraine would be to fold and not suffer what could be tens of thousands of deaths. 

But, I want them to fight.  I want them to bleed Russia.  The only way we get rid of Putin is if Russia suffers like the Soviets did in Afghanistan.

Why don't you go over there and fight then. Better yet send the wife and kids too.  Why is it ok for others to shed their blood for your political gain? 

If the US gets involved we will look stupid.  We have a failed and incompetent Commander in Chief that's extremely weak and the world knows this.  US involvement will lead to much bigger and worse things. 

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