Tigers Hire Scott Harris as President of Baseball Operations

[gehringer_2]

I'm going to be curious to see if they (try to) carry fewer pitchers next season. Sounded like Harris was talking about a deeper position rotation with more flexibility to matchup against oppostion pitching. That would normally imply more lef/right options but that requires a longer bench. The current (past) regime used a very long bullpen and tried to make up for the short bench with switch hitters, but the problem is we've had too many guys who have been switch hitters in name only, and in particular switch hitters who have not hit RHP well. 

[Timmitch55]

On 9/21/2022 at 3:34 PM, Edman85 said:

I think the Tigers going forward will be a lot more active on the back end of the 40 man roster and on the edges of the 

Ya gotta wonder about Hinch too. Will he make the cut? Didn't Hinch bring a bunch of baseball people with him?

Will Harris clean house from top to bottom? 

[casimir]

3 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

I'm going to be curious to see if they (try to) carry fewer pitchers next season. Sounded like Harris was talking about a deeper position rotation with more flexibility to matchup against oppostion pitching. That would normally imply more lef/right options but that requires a longer bench. The current (past) regime used a very long bullpen and tried to make up for the short bench with switch hitters, but the problem is we've had too many guys who have been switch hitters in name only, and in particular switch hitters who have not hit RHP well. 

I tend to agree with this in principle.  But I think part of the problem with this in 2022 was simply the number of pitching injuries throughout the year.  A lot of guys were called up and had to be protected because of previous workloads and/or competition level and not knowing how it would work out.  And then there is the development of the modern day relief pitcher being specialized to one inning per game that tends to force more populated bullpens.

Alexander seems like a guy that could go multiple innings out of the bullpen.  They need to find other RPs that can handle this on a more regular basis.  Maybe still only once through the batting order, but that should get through 2 IP, maybe squeeze a 3rd IP on occasion if needed.

The additional position player on the bench would be nice, and I agree with the platoon options, the substitution options, and the fact that Cabrera, if he's brought back, is likely to be nothing more than a part time hitter with no glove.  But let's be honest, the quality of the position players was more questionable than the quantity this season.

One of the things that I have always wondered about RPs and their workload is how does all of the BP work before entering into a game factor into pitch counts?  In other words, would a RP have a higher/lower workload if say during a week they pitched 4 innings, is there more stress on the arm if those 4 IP came in 4 solo inning outings or in 2 outings or 2 IP each (assuming the same accumulated stat lines)?

[Edman85]

3 hours ago, Timmitch55 said:

Ya gotta wonder about Hinch too. Will he make the cut? Didn't Hinch bring a bunch of baseball people with him?

Will Harris clean house from top to bottom? 

Hinch is safe, at least for this year. They've made that pretty clear.

I think people, in general, overestimate the amount of house cleaning that happens during these changes.

[Edman85]

12/10/2019    Zack Cozart and Will Wilson from Angels for Garrett Williams
2/15/2020    Burch Smith to Athletics for cash
8/2/2020    Billy Hamilton to Mets for Jordan Humphreys
8/9/2020    Cash to White Sox for Luis Basabe
8/23/2020    Cash to Rays for Daniel Robertson
8/26/2020    Rob Brantly to Yankees for Cash
8/31/2020    Cash to Rays for Anthony Banda
1/8/2021    Sam Coonrod to Phillies for Carson Ragsdale
2/4/2021    Shaun Anderson to Twins for LaMonte Wade Jr.
4/11/2021    Cash to Yankees for Thairo Estrada
4/27/2021    Wandy Peralta and Connor Cannon to Yankees for Mike Tauchman
5/31/2021    Cash to Mariners for Sam Delaplane
6/5/2021    Cash to Mets for Bruce Maxwell
6/11/2021    Matt Wisler to Rays for Michael Plassmeyer
7/2/2021    Anthony Banda to Mets for Will Toffey
7/30/2021    Sam Selman, Ivan Armstrong, Jose Marte to Angels for Tony Watson
7/30/2021    Alexander Canario and Caleb Kilian to Cubs for Kris Bryant
12/8/2021    Cash to Braves for Tanner Andrews
3/27/2022    Will Toffey to Phillies for Luke Williams
4/21/2022    Cash to Cubs for Cory Abbott
4/26/2022    Cash to Mariners for Kevin Padlo
4/30/2022    Cash to Marlins for Isan Diaz
5/11/2022    Prelander Berroa to Mariners for Donovan Walton
5/12/2022    Mike Ford to Mariners for Cash
5/14/2022    Alex Blandino and Cash to Mariners for Stuart Fairchild
5/14/2022    Mauricio Dubon to Astros for Michael Papierski
6/8/2022    Michael Plassmeyer to Phillies for Austin Wynns
7/7/2022    Cash to Guardians for Tobias Myers
7/18/2022    Cash to Guardians for Alex Young
7/31/2022    Raynel Espinal to Cubs for Dixon Machado
8/2/2022    Matthew Boyd and Curt Casali to Mariners for Michael Stryffeler and Andy Thomas
8/2/2022    Trevor Rosenthal to Brewers for Tristan Peters
8/2/2022    Jeremy Walker to Rays for Ford Proctor
8/2/2022    Darin Ruf to Mets for J.D. Davis, Thomas Szapucki, Carson Seymour, and Nick Zwack
8/31/2022    Cash to Giants for Lewis Brinson

 

I think this is the list of Giants trades since Harris joined them.

[Edman85]

Waiver Claims

1/13/2020    Jake Jewell
1/21/2020    Luis Madero
2/10/2020    Jarlin Garcia
3/10/2020    Jose Siri
2/26/2021    Jordan Humphreys
3/18/2021    Ashton Goudeau
4/5/2021    Skye Bolt
5/17/2021    Braden Bishop
5/18/2021    Trevor Hildenberger
8/30/2021    Jose Quintana
9/7/2021    Jake Jewell
11/5/2021    Hunter Harvey
11/5/2021    Austin Dean
11/5/2021    Joe Palumbo
3/13/2022    Jose Godoy
4/27/2022    Darien Nunez
6/18/2022    Yermin Mercedes
7/13/2022    Angel Rondon
7/14/2022    Aaron Fletcher
8/7/2022    Steele Walker
8/17/2022    Andrew Vasquez
8/21/2022    Patrick Mazeika
8/23/2022    Jonathan Bermudez
9/4/2022    Jose Rojas
9/16/2022    Taylor Jones
9/18/2022    Jharel Cotton

[alex]

5 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

I'm going to be curious to see if they (try to) carry fewer pitchers next season. Sounded like Harris was talking about a deeper position rotation with more flexibility to matchup against oppostion pitching. That would normally imply more lef/right options but that requires a longer bench. The current (past) regime used a very long bullpen and tried to make up for the short bench with switch hitters, but the problem is we've had too many guys who have been switch hitters in name only, and in particular switch hitters who have not hit RHP well. 

IMHO, MLB and the players union really need to look at roster spots once again. Everyone knows there are more injuries than ever before. We may never see 3 SPs on the same team pitch 200 innings again nor 7 starting position players on the same team start 150 games, etc. These two facts say it all. I hope to post something more to this subject at a later date.

Just expand to 27 players at least. MLB is very slow in making changes. Much tradition and more is there. Hopefully they can figure this out as it 'may' allow for players to get a day or two off here and there more often that are nursing an injury and not have to go on the IL as often.

Also, we are seeing more position players pitch than before. That is NOT quality baseball. We have to remember more teams have a chance at the post season now (a good change imho) - so a manager who is 2 games out of a wildcard spot, which may have been previously looked at differently because 10, 20 yrs ago the team may have been 12 games out in Sept. (and only a fight for for first place), is going to save his bullpen that night for the next game to better the teams chances of winning the next night.

There is alot there, IMHO, to look seriously at roster expansion.

[Tenacious D]

I don't follow the Giants or the NL that closely, so don't know many of the names that were acquired, either via trade or waivers, but the list appears to be underwhelming.  I remember the Cozart trade--it was suggested here by a few that that was the type of trade that the Tigers should make--take on a bad contract to get a good prospect in return.  No idea how that panned out with Will Wilson, though (too lazy to look).  

[chasfh]

A.J. Hinch helped hire Scott Harris, so he isn't going anywhere.

You know the phrase, "To whom much is given, much is expected?" The flip side of that is that you can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit. When a manager a given a roster dominated by rookies and AAAA players, demanding him to turn that into a playoff contender is too much.

It's a total O.G. move to blame the manager for the failures of an entire organization, but I think most people recognize that any manager can do only so much with a roster of ciphers given to him by an organization that has spent the last seven years spinning its tires in the mud. When the tunnel is completely dark, it's easy to understand how the human beings on the roster would mentally check out. People can blame the manager 100% for failing to turn that around and inspire a .400 team to run through the wall every single night to avoid losing this individual game, but I think most reasonable folks can see how mentally taxing, maybe even impossible, that is to expect over the course of 162 games played for six straight months.

Now that we appear to have plugged the gaping hole in leadership at the top of front office, once Hinch is given a solid roster to contend with, if he falls well short of expectations, then he will deserve to be shit-canned. Now is not that time.

 

Edited September 23, 2022 by chasfh

[Jim Cowan]

Yeah I doubt that Hinch is in any immediate danger.  Harris knows that Hinch managed a lousy group of players to approximately the same W/L record as anyone else would have.

 

[Tenacious D]

3 hours ago, chasfh said:

A.J. Hinch helped hire Scott Harris, so he isn't going anywhere.

You know the phrase, "To whom much is given, much is expected?" The flip side of that is that you can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit. When a manager a given a roster dominated by rookies and AAAA players, demanding him to turn that into a playoff contender is too much.

It's a total O.G. move to blame the manager for the failures of an entire organization, but I think most people recognize that any manager can do only so much with a roster of ciphers given to him by an organization that has spent the last seven years spinning its tires in the mud. When the tunnel is completely dark, it's easy to understand how the human beings on the roster would mentally check out. People can blame the manager 100% for failing to turn that around and inspire a .400 team to run through the wall every single night to avoid losing this individual game, but I think most reasonable folks can see how mentally taxing, maybe even impossible, that is to expect over the course of 162 games played for six straight months.

Now that we appear to have plugged the gaping hole in leadership at the top of front office, once Hinch is given a solid roster to contend with, if he falls well short of expectations, then he will deserve to be shit-canned. Now is not that time.

 

how do you explain the performance of the veterans? Schoop, Candelario, Barnhart, Baez?  That's a lot of veterans who played beneath recent seasons. Consensus top prospects in Tork and Greene? Not sure we can blame Hinch for this, but it's not as though the team was littered with AAAA players.

[gehringer_2]

23 minutes ago, Tenacious D said:

how do you explain the performance of the veterans? Schoop, Candelario, Barnhart, Baez?  That's a lot of veterans who played beneath recent seasons. Consensus top prospects in Tork and Greene? Not sure we can blame Hinch for this, but it's not as though the team was littered with AAAA players.

Unitl I see learn something to change my mind, I'm still going with the thesis that somehow as a team,  Coolbaugh and the data team had the Tigers too focused on the wrong things at the plate. That said, I have no idea what role Hinch either did or didn't play in it. I think what Kaline used to say remains true, that as a hitter you have to have an idea what the pitcher's plan against you is, but beyond that, you have to look for strikes and swing at them. Everything else in a hitters head as a pitcher delivers is counter productive. It goes to what Harris said - you have to command the zone, and the only way to do that is by swinging at pitches in the zone and taking pitches out of it. No data about analytics or a pitcher's general tendencies or any other global information (other than scouting about a pitcher's possible 'tells') actually helps you at the instant you have to decide about *this* pitch. Recognition of *this* pitch always needs to be the focus. 

Edited September 23, 2022 by gehringer_2

[sabretooth]

They acquired or elevated better players in 2021 and 2022 just as the league was deadening the ball.

Those particular players:

- were a little too green (Tork)

- were a little past their peak (Baez, and Schoop if we're including previous acquisitions)

- were coming off one year "highs"  (Grossman and Candy, who was also a previous acquisition and also had a nice partial 2020)

- were about to experience unexpected injury(s) (Meadows, Greene)

- had below average hitting talent to begin with (Reyes, Castros, Barnhart)

- were too old to Rock and Roll (Miggy)

Add to the deadened ball, and the incidental stuff listed above, some kind of bad coaching take (I suspect they were over/mis coached towards "giving into" the pitcher), and the results were catastrophic.

[sabretooth]

Examples of guys who worked out:

- In addition to being on the fail list above, its been said that Tork credits his time with Lloyd in Toledo for helping him get back on track.

- Greene has credited AJ with short after-AB briefings, he has worked through a couple of slumps.

- Carpenter has been with the team a relatively short time and perhaps hasnt been impacted by the MLB coaching yet.

- Hasse seems to be the one MLB guy who made an adjustment and it paid off.  I cant recall if that was recommended by Coolbaugh or what.

For a team going through and historic blow out hitting wise that coolbaugh's name never seems to come up publicly in a positive light.

I hope a change is made there, but I am not holding my breath.

[buddha]

2 hours ago, Jim Cowan said:

Yeah I doubt that Hinch is in any immediate danger.  Harris knows that Hinch managed a lousy group of players to approximately the same W/L record as anyone else would have.

 

i think that's the nicest thing you've ever said about aj hinch.  🙂

[chasfh]

5 hours ago, Tenacious D said:

how do you explain the performance of the veterans? Schoop, Candelario, Barnhart, Baez?  That's a lot of veterans who played beneath recent seasons. Consensus top prospects in Tork and Greene? Not sure we can blame Hinch for this, but it's not as though the team was littered with AAAA players.

Well, there's no having to explain Barnhart since most of us knew he was terrible coming in. He had had exactly one season of better than 0.9 bWAR out of his eight total seasons coming into the year. Nobody who was paying attention before the season began who reasonably have expected him to contribute any wins to this team. So we can throw him out.

As for the other three, the one that hurt us most was Candelario. He was a 3.8-win player last year and face-planted his way to 0.2 this year, so that's 3.6 wins he's lost us all on his own. Schoop lost a couple wins (2.0 last year, 0.0 so far this) and Baez's value was basically cut in half from 4.6 last year to 2.3 this year. Add them all up, and instead of 57-92, we get to 65-84. So even if they matched their performances of last season, or even elevated their performance by, say, two wins each—if Candy and Baez were six- or seven-win players, and Schoop earned us four wins—we'd still be solidly under .500.

And the reason we'd be under .500 under any circumstance is that this roster is littered with the rookies and AAAA players that Al Avila acquired for us.

There's that word again: "littered". How dare I use that word to describe our roster?

Here's how I dare:

The Tigers have had a total of 51 different players put on the uniform at game time during this season. Of those 51, sixteen have been rookies: Alex Faedo; Ángel De Jesus; Beau Brieske; Drew Carlton; Elvin Rodríguez; Garrett Hill; Jason Foley; Joey Wentz; Kody Clemens; Luis Castillo; Josh Lester; Kerry Carpenter; Kody Clemens; Riley Greene; Ryan Kreidler; and Spencer Torkelson.

Of the remaining 35 players, there are 11 I would consider AAAA players, guys who have either bounced up and down between the majors and the minors throughout their careers, or guys at or near sub-replacement career WARs who would be bouncing up and down had they not spent their big-league careers exclusively with the Tigers. Those 11 are: Bryan Garcia; Daz Cameron; Derek Hill; Drew Hutchison; Dustin Garneau; Harold Castro; Jacob Barnes; Rony García; Víctor Reyes; Willi Castro; and Zack Short.

That's 27 out of 51 Tiger players this year who were either rookies or AAAA players. More than half.

And it's not as though these were emergency replacements who were coming in for someone who had to go on the IL and then turning right back down I-75 15 days later. These are guys who got oodles of playing time with this team. Of the 5,379 plate appearances the Tigers made going into tonight's game, these rookies and AAAA players had 42% of them. And of the 1,303 innings pitched by the team, 39% were by rookies and AAAA pitchers.

I suppose one could debate whether someone like Victor Reyes (0.6 career WAR in five years) or Harold Castro (-1.2 WAR in five years) should be considered AAAA, given that they've basically maintained their spots on the big club for a few years each. I would counter that neither Reyes not Hackin' Harold would have an ongoing spot on any other roster, outside of Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Kansas City, or Miami, for the last five years running.

The point is this: we can place blame on A.J. and the coaches for whatever their part is in the collapse of three of the four guys you named, if it makes us feel better. But I don't think there is any way we can blame them for not leading this same group of guys, handed to them by Al Avila and crew, and getting this same amount of playing time, to the winning record most of us imagined was gonna happen. As the guy here who arguably hates A.J. the most has said, anyone else would have ended up with basically the same result.

 

[1984Echoes]

21 hours ago, SoCalTiger said:

I doubt he is available. Just someone that met your inquiry and represents risk taking to acquire. Don’t think we have the right assets they need. Sure would be fun though. 

I didn't see anyone that was Miggy-like to go after (close to FA, big star, small-market team has made the decision that he will be too expensive for them...); where we might be able to put together a package that could get us that player.

The closest guys I could find I guess, would be:

Corbin Burnes, Brewers (would love to put him at the top of our rotation...!)

Willy Adames, Brewers (funny name, there...)

Randy Arozarena, Rays (not exactly that close to FA... but a nice RH'ed OF bat that would go well with all our LH'ed OF bats...)

MJ Melendez, catcher, Royals (not close to FA and only an ok bat, nothing special... but he's LH'ed and might be a good match in a Tigers catching tandem)

Marlins have a bunch of pitchers if we wanted to look there: Sandy Alcantara, Eddie Cabrera, Pablo Lopez, Jesus Luzardo...

 

The other thing out-of-the-box I'm hoping Harris can uncover is a guy in AA or AAA blocked from getting playing time in  MLB, or a guy stuck to the bench & not getting enough of a chance. Sort of like how the Royals nabbed Drew Waters (not that he's done well enough in MLB but it's only his rook year...). And how we traded away Suarez (and now Paredes).

 

[SoCalTiger]

14 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

I didn't see anyone that was Miggy-like to go after (close to FA, big star, small-market team has made the decision that he will be too expensive for them...); where we might be able to put together a package that could get us that player.

The closest guys I could find I guess, would be:

Corbin Burnes, Brewers (would love to put him at the top of our rotation...!)

Willy Adames, Brewers (funny name, there...)

Randy Arozarena, Rays (not exactly that close to FA... but a nice RH'ed OF bat that would go well with all our LH'ed OF bats...)

MJ Melendez, catcher, Royals (not close to FA and only an ok bat, nothing special... but he's LH'ed and might be a good match in a Tigers catching tandem)

Marlins have a bunch of pitchers if we wanted to look there: Sandy Alcantara, Eddie Cabrera, Pablo Lopez, Jesus Luzardo...

 

The other thing out-of-the-box I'm hoping Harris can uncover is a guy in AA or AAA blocked from getting playing time in  MLB, or a guy stuck to the bench & not getting enough of a chance. Sort of like how the Royals nabbed Drew Waters (not that he's done well enough in MLB but it's only his rook year...). And how we traded away Suarez (and now Paredes).

 

Those all sound like good options. Al missed Wily Adames when Tampa traded him to the Brewers. He has 30 bombs ( E sock with 20 ouch ). 
The Yankees have two budding AAA shortstops and are trying to sign Judge and unload some salary to do it so maybe we try for one of those shortstops and take on Donaldson salary in the trade? 
 

The lefty catcher you listed could team with Haase so that works and KC wants pitching and Melendez is blocked by Savy 

 

good stuff

[1984Echoes]

Yeah...

That's exactly the out-of-the-box thinking I'd like to see from Harris...

[Tenacious D]

2 hours ago, 1984Echoes said:

Yeah...

That's exactly the out-of-the-box thinking I'd like to see from Harris...

Volpe or Peraza and Donaldson for Candy and Kreidler?  Hear Josh is a douche, but I could tolerate him to upgrade at SS.  

[Jim Cowan]

8 hours ago, buddha said:

i think that's the nicest thing you've ever said about aj hinch.  🙂

Ha ha, when I said "anyone else" I was including you and me.

[Cruzer1]

When looking forward to 2024, the Tigers do have some options in their system. Madden, Flores, and Olson each pitched well in AA this year, and should be in consideration by 24. Especially Flores.

[casimir]

10 hours ago, 1984Echoes said:

I didn't see anyone that was Miggy-like to go after (close to FA, big star, small-market team has made the decision that he will be too expensive for them...); where we might be able to put together a package that could get us that player.

The closest guys I could find I guess, would be:

Corbin Burnes, Brewers (would love to put him at the top of our rotation...!)

Willy Adames, Brewers (funny name, there...)

Randy Arozarena, Rays (not exactly that close to FA... but a nice RH'ed OF bat that would go well with all our LH'ed OF bats...)

MJ Melendez, catcher, Royals (not close to FA and only an ok bat, nothing special... but he's LH'ed and might be a good match in a Tigers catching tandem)

Marlins have a bunch of pitchers if we wanted to look there: Sandy Alcantara, Eddie Cabrera, Pablo Lopez, Jesus Luzardo...

 

The other thing out-of-the-box I'm hoping Harris can uncover is a guy in AA or AAA blocked from getting playing time in  MLB, or a guy stuck to the bench & not getting enough of a chance. Sort of like how the Royals nabbed Drew Waters (not that he's done well enough in MLB but it's only his rook year...). And how we traded away Suarez (and now Paredes).

 

Melendez has quietly put up a reasonable season for a rookie C.  He's also played some OF.  I doubt Kansas City would move him, he's young and cheap.  But a tandem of Melendez/Haase is interesting when you look at the numbers in total.  Weird thing about Melendez is that he has shown reverse splits this season (.695 vs RHPs and .894 vs LHPs).

[Edman85]

10 hours ago, SoCalTiger said:

Those all sound like good options. Al missed Wily Adames when Tampa traded him to the Brewers. He has 30 bombs ( E sock with 20 ouch ). 
The Yankees have two budding AAA shortstops and are trying to sign Judge and unload some salary to do it so maybe we try for one of those shortstops and take on Donaldson salary in the trade? 
 

The lefty catcher you listed could team with Haase so that works and KC wants pitching and Melendez is blocked by Savy 

 

good stuff

 

So we are already tasking Hinch and the coaching staff with working with the new front office processes, overhauling development, and trying to problem solve this team's issues. Let's just add a redass malcontent who can't play 3B anymore. Oh, and I'm sure Baez would willingly move off shortstop and not cause any clubhouse issues. Buy-in next year is going to be huge, and this just seems to be standing in the way of that.

Pass.

The Royals won't trade Melendez, and would probably ask for one of Greene/Torkelson or some package equating somebody of that ilk.

[casimir]

11 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

The Royals won't trade Melendez, and would probably ask for one of Greene/Torkelson or some package equating somebody of that ilk.

What kind of prospect is Melendez?  I don't have a clue.  He's out up some pretty good minor league numbers.  He's been a good enough player for them to get his bat into the lineup as an OF and even DH.  If they're asking for one of Greene/Torkelson, than there's no way.