Biden's presidency

[oblong]

I see that Al Avila is trending on twitter, click on it, and its people asking if he made this trade.

Very harsh and undeserved.

 

[mtutiger]

12 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

I interpret the marine left behind is Paul Whelan.

 

Ahh yes, I'm sure it was the President who made the decision not to bring Paul Whelan home.

What a toolbag.

[Motor City Sonics]

16 minutes ago, oblong said:

I see that Al Avila is trending on twitter, click on it, and its people asking if he made this trade.

Very harsh and undeserved.

 

Can Brittney draw a walk ? 

[Tigeraholic1]

41 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Ahh yes, I'm sure it was the President who made the decision not to bring Paul Whelan home.

What a toolbag.

Did prez authorize releasing Viktor Bout?

[Tigeraholic1]

39 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Can Brittney draw a walk ? 

All of a sudden the Russell Wilson trade doesn’t look so bad anymore.

[chasfh]

And also this:

 

Good man.

[oblong]

15 minutes ago, chasfh said:

And also this:

 

Good man.

I think it's against the terms and conditions of twitter to backtrack.  The allowed course of action is to double down on your wrongness.

 

[Edman85]

The fact that Griner is some hero when she has a DV history is icky to me.

[Motown Bombers]

US congressman going batshit with the whataboutism.

 

[mtutiger]

26 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

The fact that Griner is some hero when she has a DV history is icky to me.

Does her history mean that she should remain imprisoned in Russia?

[CMRivdogs]

Pertinent interview on the trade....before the announcement.

The U-S wasn't going to be able to get them both out at the same time on any deal IMO

 https://www.vox.com/today-explained/23298362/brittney-griner-wnba-russia-viktor-bout

Sean Rameswaram

Let’s just get right out the gate with this question. Viktor Bout for Brittney Griner. Fair trade? 

Douglas Farah

I don’t think it’s a fair trade, but I think it’s a necessary trade. 

I think that Viktor has actual blood on his hands for many conflicts and has done horrendous things, or empowered people to do horrendous things for the years he was trafficking in weapons to Charles Taylor in Liberia, the RUF in Sierra Leone, Laurent Kabila in Democratic Republic of Congo, the Northern Alliance and then the Taliban in Afghanistan. 

So there’s nothing fair about it in terms of absolute justice. But I do think that he is not in a position to wreak a lot more havoc in his life. And I think Brittney Griner is in significant danger in Russia because of her sexual orientation, because of who she is, and because of the prize that the Russians have in her. That is worth the trade at this point to bring her back.

Sean Rameswaram

How are we supposed to wrap our heads around how insanely lopsided this is? It’s estimated Viktor Bout may be responsible for the deaths of maybe tens of thousands of brown people around the world. And Brittney Griner maybe smokes some weed once in a while.

Douglas Farah

I don’t think it’s a fair trade. I have gone out of my way in talking about this and in our book and the other things to point out how absolutely horrific what Viktor Bout did, what he enabled people to do over a period of years. 

And you talked about, you know, the tens of thousands of deaths, but there are an equal number more of rapes. There are that many burned villages. There are that many children who were kidnapped, often forced to kill their own parents, burn their own villages, and become child soldiers.

So I have no illusions about who Viktor Bout was.

My main point is that he could be up for parole in a couple of years anyway. He’s no longer, I don’t think, going to be able to function in the world he helped create at that time. And Brittney, as a gay woman, well-identified, being held in a society where at least the upper echelons are extremely anti-gay, anti-LGBTQ community. So that’s a significant risk, and if you can get her out without causing the rest of the world significant damage, it should be considered. I don’t think it’s that Viktor Bout did anything like Brittney did. She clearly has done nothing remotely comparable.

[mtutiger]

10 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

US congressman going batshit with the whataboutism.

 

There may be deeper reasons why Russia may not have wanted to trade Whelan, but the reaction by many to Griner being released is an excellent example of why Russia probably wouldn't accept a 2-2 or 2-1 deal anyway.

We just cannot help ourselves lol

[gehringer_2]

Let not forget that Bout has also actually served 10yrs already.

[Motown Bombers]

9 minutes ago, CMRivdogs said:

Pertinent interview on the trade....before the announcement.

The U-S wasn't going to be able to get them both out at the same time on any deal IMO

 https://www.vox.com/today-explained/23298362/brittney-griner-wnba-russia-viktor-bout

Sean Rameswaram

Let’s just get right out the gate with this question. Viktor Bout for Brittney Griner. Fair trade? 

Douglas Farah

I don’t think it’s a fair trade, but I think it’s a necessary trade. 

I think that Viktor has actual blood on his hands for many conflicts and has done horrendous things, or empowered people to do horrendous things for the years he was trafficking in weapons to Charles Taylor in Liberia, the RUF in Sierra Leone, Laurent Kabila in Democratic Republic of Congo, the Northern Alliance and then the Taliban in Afghanistan. 

So there’s nothing fair about it in terms of absolute justice. But I do think that he is not in a position to wreak a lot more havoc in his life. And I think Brittney Griner is in significant danger in Russia because of her sexual orientation, because of who she is, and because of the prize that the Russians have in her. That is worth the trade at this point to bring her back.

Sean Rameswaram

How are we supposed to wrap our heads around how insanely lopsided this is? It’s estimated Viktor Bout may be responsible for the deaths of maybe tens of thousands of brown people around the world. And Brittney Griner maybe smokes some weed once in a while.

Douglas Farah

I don’t think it’s a fair trade. I have gone out of my way in talking about this and in our book and the other things to point out how absolutely horrific what Viktor Bout did, what he enabled people to do over a period of years. 

And you talked about, you know, the tens of thousands of deaths, but there are an equal number more of rapes. There are that many burned villages. There are that many children who were kidnapped, often forced to kill their own parents, burn their own villages, and become child soldiers.

So I have no illusions about who Viktor Bout was.

My main point is that he could be up for parole in a couple of years anyway. He’s no longer, I don’t think, going to be able to function in the world he helped create at that time. And Brittney, as a gay woman, well-identified, being held in a society where at least the upper echelons are extremely anti-gay, anti-LGBTQ community. So that’s a significant risk, and if you can get her out without causing the rest of the world significant damage, it should be considered. I don’t think it’s that Viktor Bout did anything like Brittney did. She clearly has done nothing remotely comparable.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say there is no Russian in the US currently serving a 9 year sentence for weed so there was never going to be an equal trade. 

[Edman85]

12 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Does her history mean that she should remain imprisoned in Russia?

No, but it does mean she isn't the hero that the lionization this year has suggested.

[oblong]

I saw it suggested on twitter by someone that it's our fault she was in prison because of gender pay equity.  She had to go play there to make money.

Come on..... 

Gender pay in the workplace is a real issue but not when it comes to pro sports.  Just because a man and a woman are the best at playing basketball doesn't mean society is required to pay them equally.  Pro sports is about as equitable as you'll find in terms of someone's dollar worth to the industry.  Saying things like that hurts the real victims.

 

[Motown Bombers]

If Griner was paid the same as Lebron James, the WNBA would completely fold. 

[mtutiger]

11 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

No, but it does mean she isn't the hero that the lionization this year has suggested.

OK. 

I dont think you need to view her as a hero to think that she was unjustly imprisoned and that is a good thing she was released. 

Nor does being happy she was released before another prisoner mean that people aren't sympathetic (perhaps even more sympathetic, tbh) to the fact that other person is still imprisoned unjustly.

The culture is gonna do what it's gonna do, I cannot control how people view Brittany Griner. But on strictly the narrow facts as they exist, I view this as a good outcome.

Edited December 8, 2022 by mtutiger

[Motown Bombers]

Just a reminder that Trump had two years to get Whelan released. 

[mtutiger]

12 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Just a reminder that Trump had two years to get Whelan released. 

I just think it's telling that the political incentives in a situation like this, with two high profile prisoners in Russia and the option of bringing only one of them home or none of them at all, based on some of the reactions in social media anyway, appear to be lean toward bringing nobody home.

It's really kind of a sad indictment, but even despite the comments from Whelan's family, Americans cannot help themselves apparently.

Edited December 8, 2022 by mtutiger

[oblong]

It plays right into Russia's playbook.

 

[Tigeraholic1]

40 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

I just think it's telling that the political incentives in a situation like this, with two high profile prisoners in Russia and the option of bringing only one of them home or none of them at all, based on some of the reactions in social media anyway, appear to be lean toward bringing nobody home.

It's really kind of a sad indictment, but even despite the comments from Whelan's family, Americans cannot help themselves apparently.

You are correct. My only question is was there ever an offer on the table Victor for Whelan? I guess we will never know.

[oblong]

yeah, probably "Stop giving money to Ukraine and get out of the way"

[mtutiger]

53 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

You are correct. My only question is was there ever an offer on the table Victor for Whelan? I guess we will never know.

Everything I've read suggests that Whelan wasn't on the table by Russia. Not sure why, but that they place a different value on him than Griner apparnetly.

If true, that leaves you either taking the one you can get or taking nobody. And if that is in fact the scenario, I just don't see how it's a bad thing. Kinda sad to see so many people trying to create a culture war out of it.

[Tiger337]

I think this is the kind of thing that almost nobody knows anything about.  It's like baseball fans complaining that their GM didn't try to get their favorite trade target. How do you know they didn't try?  It's just another excuse for MAGAs to hate Joe Biden, to whine about Blacks and gays getting special treatment and to pretend that they are the only ones who care about military personnel.  It covers all their favorite topics.