Biden's presidency

[Tigeraholic1]

For every off base NA singer there are many powerful ones Standing for more that day.

 

Edited December 9, 2022 by Tigeraholic1

[gehringer_2]

10 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

There is no reason to take the right wing patriotism seriously until they separate themselves from Trump.  

there is very little reason to take any public display of patriotism seriously as 9 times of 10 it's just another grift.

[1984Echoes]

24 minutes ago, chasfh said:

What's the religious element to Santa Claus, the presents, the office parties, the decorations, etc.?

Santa Claus and presents are...

Saint Nicholas (Sinterklaas in Dutch... which is where Santa Claus comes from) was known as a gift-giver, leaving gold coins in the shoes of the needy, presents to children, etc. Sinterklaas evolved/ conjoined into Santa Claus/ Christmas in America.

That may be part myth-making... but that and the celebrations (office parties/ decorations) don't necessarily make it non-religious as much as "celebration of" whatever that celebration is for, including the birth of Jesus. That doesn't negate the religious element per se. 

But I'm not going to disagree with you in the sense that, absolutely there is less of a religious element today than there was decades ago, which is why we see all these "put Christ back into Christmas" signs.

I'm just saying, the reasons you are citing don't in and of themselves make something religious or not (an office party could be a religious celebration of the birth of Jesus, like a prayer meeting or a bible reading); it is the general overall attitude of the populace that is becoming less religious (that the office party is NOT religious and is instead secular is not caused by the "office party" but rather the participants themselves). Secularism in America is on the rise. That alone means less religiousosity in any celebration.

And I think that in particular (more secularist) is driving the holiday to be more secular rather than religious.

I'm going to guess that Santa Claus, presents, office parties and decorations in the 1950's did NOT reduce the religious aspect of Christmas. And they did exist back then...

[1984Echoes]

10 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Right. Basically the three -  Harvest, Spring and Winter Solstice celebrations go back in multiple places as far as anything you can call human farming culture. Hadn't heard the 'Mithras' title but "Saturnalia" is also a well known name of solstice celebrations from old Rome. No doubt that when Rome became Christian the easiest thing to do was re-appropriate existing cultural habits with new religious interpretations. The idea of the re-interpretation of old rites into new paradigms is as fundamental to practice in Christianity as the Passover->Easter connection.

And the Wicca = WITCH demonization tradition in order to defeat paganism/ female-led non-Christian civilizations.

[1984Echoes]

8 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

there is very little reason to take any public display of patriotism seriously as 9 times of 10 it's just another grift.

Or:

PDP = Fake Patriotism.

I don't want to say 9 times out of 10... I'd have no idea of the actual percentage... but fake patriotism absolutely exists.

[Tiger337]

16 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

there is very little reason to take any public display of patriotism seriously as 9 times of 10 it's just another grift.

It's usually a grift, but it works because so many people are willing to buy into it.  Same with fake Christian.  

[Jim Cowan]

37 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

For every off base NA singer there are many powerful ones Standing for more that day.

 

I loved that, but there was some outrage at the time.

[Tigeraholic1]

16 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

I loved that, but there was some outrage at the time.

Exactly. It has become trivial now but it has had its moments. If I recall hearing Ernie Harwell stuck his neck out pretty far to make this happen. Could have effected his career.

Edited December 9, 2022 by Tigeraholic1

[gehringer_2]

48 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

I loved that, but there was some outrage at the time.

LOL - more than 'some' I would say! Unless your memory reaches back that far you probably can't imagine how straightlaced things were then. Remember the Beatles were originally attacked for 'long hair' in early 60's when they were barely wearing it over their ears. In 1968 we were literally only a couple of years past it being 'controversial' for grade school boys to wear jeans or  tennis shoes to public school in Detroit - had to be slacks and leather soled shoes. You played the National Anthem with a band/orchestra or sang it acapella and sang it straight - period

Edited December 10, 2022 by gehringer_2

[oblong]

2 hours ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

Exactly. It has become trivial now but it has had its moments. If I recall hearing Ernie Harwell stuck his neck out pretty far to make this happen. Could have effected his career.

He almost got fired. 
 

 

[romad1]

3 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

There is no reason to take the right wing patriotism seriously until they separate themselves from Trump.  

Profound and true.   The easiest way into the wallet of the average person is via their patriotism or their religious feeling.

[chasfh]

13 hours ago, 1984Echoes said:

Santa Claus and presents are...

Saint Nicholas (Sinterklaas in Dutch... which is where Santa Claus comes from) was known as a gift-giver, leaving gold coins in the shoes of the needy, presents to children, etc. Sinterklaas evolved/ conjoined into Santa Claus/ Christmas in America.

That may be part myth-making... but that and the celebrations (office parties/ decorations) don't necessarily make it non-religious as much as "celebration of" whatever that celebration is for, including the birth of Jesus. That doesn't negate the religious element per se. 

But I'm not going to disagree with you in the sense that, absolutely there is less of a religious element today than there was decades ago, which is why we see all these "put Christ back into Christmas" signs.

I'm just saying, the reasons you are citing don't in and of themselves make something religious or not (an office party could be a religious celebration of the birth of Jesus, like a prayer meeting or a bible reading); it is the general overall attitude of the populace that is becoming less religious (that the office party is NOT religious and is instead secular is not caused by the "office party" but rather the participants themselves). Secularism in America is on the rise. That alone means less religiousosity in any celebration.

And I think that in particular (more secularist) is driving the holiday to be more secular rather than religious.

I'm going to guess that Santa Claus, presents, office parties and decorations in the 1950's did NOT reduce the religious aspect of Christmas. And they did exist back then...

I don’t think secular Christmas reduces religious Christmas for people, because I think people can and already do compartmentalize the two. When I was a kid our family went to church and had religious Christmas; then we came home and had secular Christmas. They occur on the same day and they may even have had the same roots, but they were totally different experiences that didn’t cross over. I think that’s true of many if not most families who subscribe to one of the Christian religions.

I think the advantage of compartmentalizing Christmas into separate types of holidays is that it allows non-Christians to join in the social celebration of Christmas, without feeling pressure of having to accept someone else’s religion into their personal lives to do so. It could be a way to unify a people of diverse faiths, or of no faith at all, in mutual celebration on what is already a government-mandated holiday. I acknowledge it won’t happen in my lifetime, and may never happen at all, but I think it’s a beautiful ideal.

Edited December 10, 2022 by chasfh

[chasfh]

On 12/8/2022 at 4:29 PM, mtutiger said:

But at the end of the day, whatever his past transgressions may be, they do not matter, just as Griner's do not matter. All that matters is that both of them are Americans who were wrongfully imprisoned in Russia. And we should celebrate the successes we have (today Griner) while redoubling efforts to gain release to those still imprisoned (Whelan and likely others).

My answer is the same as it was when some people complained that Griner wasn't released when Trevor Reed was released a few months ago (and yes there were a lot of complaints): we don't have to play this game. The Benny Johnson types (and those who complained about Reed being released over Griner) want us fighting and dividing over this shit, and it is not worth it. Especially because we all want the same thing in the end (or at least I hope we do).

It's just really counterproductive and discouraging to see Americans being brought home turn into a partisan cudgel. It wasn't right when it was Trevor Reed, it wasn't right when it was Otto Warmbier during the last administration, and it isn't right now.

True as all this may be in theory, to the same degree that conservatives seek to highlight Whelan’s status as an ex-Marine as a cudgel with which to clobber Brittney and the liberals who support her release, the fact that he was basically expelled from the Marines under a bad conduct discharge is relevant to the moral relativism part of the discussion—albeit, to your point, not to the issue of whether to release at all.

[gehringer_2]

48 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I don’t think secular Christmas reduces religious Christmas for people, because I think people can and already do compartmentalize the two

Of course ironically enough, the critique of many Christians of many other Christians is that they too easily compartmentalize their faith.....

[mtutiger]

34 minutes ago, chasfh said:

True as all this may be in theory, to the same degree that conservatives seek to highlight Whelan’s status as an ex-Marine as a cudgel with which to clobber Brittney and the liberals who support her release, the fact that he was basically expelled from the Marines under a bad conduct discharge is relevant to the moral relativism part of the discussion—albeit, to your point, not to the issue of whether to release at all.

To the point of the quoted post, we all make a choice to argue on those terms. The fact that Benny Johnson types inject "moral relativism" into the conversation does not mean we all have to engage it or argue it on those terms. And I would suggest that by doing so (and reflexively going after Paul Whelan as a response to unfair maligning of Griner) is part of what folks like that want. They want us fighting and dividing over something that is unequivocally good.

[mtutiger]

Genuinely feel bad that it falls to the brother of someone wrongfully imprisoned in Russia and yet to be released to fact check morons on Twitter dot com

[chasfh]

2 hours ago, mtutiger said:

To the point of the quoted post, we all make a choice to argue on those terms. The fact that Benny Johnson types inject "moral relativism" into the conversation does not mean we all have to engage it or argue it on those terms. And I would suggest that by doing so (and reflexively going after Paul Whelan as a response to unfair maligning of Griner) is part of what folks like that want. They want us fighting and dividing over something that is unequivocally good.

It’s a fine choice to take the high road. I also think in a case like this it’s fair to return the shove. 

Edited December 10, 2022 by chasfh

[mtutiger]

4 minutes ago, chasfh said:

It’s a fine choice to take the high road. I also think in a case like this it’s fair to return the shove. 

If "returning the shove" means maligning Whelan's background, which is as irrelevant to the discussion as Griner's, count me out. Ymmv, I guess.

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, mtutiger said:

If "returning the shove" means maligning Whelan's background, which is as irrelevant to the discussion as Griner's, count me out. Ymmv, I guess.

Not maligning. Reminding. If they’re going to allege his status as a Marine hero as the basis for why he should have come home instead of her, which they do say, it’s fair to remind them that the Marines themselves did not want him around any longer and showed him the door. 

Edited December 10, 2022 by chasfh

[1984Echoes]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

Not maligning. Reminding. If they’re going to allege his status as a Marine hero as the basis for why he should have come home instead of her, which they do say, it’s fair to remind them that the Marines themselves did not want him around any longer and showed him the door. 

In accounting that would be called "full disclosure", the opposite of "cherry-picked stats".

[ewsieg]

Dave Whelan was on Flashpoint (Sunday morning Detroit show) this morning.  He was everything you'd hope an American that understands how difficult of a position it is for the detainee, as well as their family, that is held in a foreign country would act.

One thing I took out of the interview, and I'm not sure if he said this based on his view that his brother did nothing wrong or if he had some inside knowledge (guessing probably not) was that he said he doesn't believe Greiner even had anything on her.  Thought it was an interesting tidbit.  

[oblong]

As a Kennedy assassination buff the talk by David Whelan is not unlike what we heard Robert Oswald say at the time. 

[chasfh]

Here's a picture that's going to show up all over right wing media as further evidence of American's decline.

[oblong]

Go for it.....

keep digging.

 

[chasfh]

23 hours ago, oblong said:

Go for it.....

keep digging.

 

It's a guess.