mtutiger Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 Manchin was on Fox News and we have seen politicians say different things on Fox News than they do on other networks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 45 minutes ago, mtutiger said: shocker... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 20 hours ago, pfife said: saying they're butthurt and blaming them for fascism instead of the fascists doesn't strike me as a way to get them to vote how you want them to vote. I agree that fascists are to blame for fascism... I'm not blaming Dem voters for that. What I am blaming them for, if they let fascism just take over by not voting... Is rolling over and playing dead while fascism rolls over the country due to lack of Dem voter "enthusiasm". I AM, and WILL, blame them for that. Whether you like that or not, I don't care. Tell the progressives to GET OFF THEIR ASS and VOTE to save this country. I don't care whether they like that message or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 10 hours ago, Tiger337 said: I agree with you, but the progressives are so concerned about climate change, in particular, that they feel as is we are doomed either way if we don't address it in a revolutionary way. They don't necessarily see the moderates as a significantly better option than the Republuicans. So vote in more Dems, moderate or otherwise. The sheer higher number of Dems reduces the moderates impact. This isn't hard. And a 2-year plan with zero perseverance is not as good a 30-year plan with absolute perseverance. I'm just saying... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 9 hours ago, gehringer_2 said: Yes - disregard of American wage earners is a sin the Dems are going to have a hard time... That was a sin as much on the Republican side as the Dem side. Trump's populism spoke directly to that. So does Bernie's. It would have been the Dem version of atonement for that. But the Infrastructure Bill goes DIRECTLY to Blue Collar America... give it a chance to blossom and I don't really think it'll be such a hard time for the Dems to address. But then we have Trump winning in 2016, not Bernie. Now we are where we are... Hoping the economy/ Infrastructure blossoms to avoid falling into fascism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMRivdogs Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 I'd say go for a smaller package and hope for better later. To me the most important piece of legislation is to shore up voting rights. Once again Papa Don is shouting the quiet part Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 9 hours ago, pfife said: they don't. They think progs owe them their votes b/c they're "not as bad as the fascist Republicans". It will only get worse if the GOP keeps going to the left of them on some of these key economic issues (at least rhetorically). I think this board is full of people that have socioeconomic status that enables us to vote based on things like "stopping fascism". And that's totally fine. But I also think there are a lot of ppl out there that are voting based on things like "my job" and, right or wrong it doesn't matter, "stopping fascism" isn't on their radar. The Democrats need to either get "stopping fascism" on people's radar (and do so in a way that isn't terrible and "you don't know what's best for you-ish"), or adapt in some other way to get the "my job" votes. "My job" is just one example. PS: Just in case you were wondering... I am in NO WAY stating that "stopping fascism" is a one and only issue. I am a ferocious supporter of taking measures to stop climate change. I am a ferocious supporter of supporting the middle class. That means a focus on Infrastructure, future high paying blue collar industries (EV Car manufacturing, EV battery manufacture, solar and wind industries, both utility and residential, etc.). If any tax breaks are given, I believe in giving them to the middle class because (a) 70% of our economy is consumerism and (b) give a $1 to a middle class or lower-class person or family and they spend it (consumerism). Trickle down doesn't work so giving the top 1% a tax break means most of them just sit on it (savings/ investments/ stock market) which does NOT spur the economy. Wait!!! Those are all DEMOCRATIC positions! Oh, and we can also stop fascism by voting for more Dems. My exclaiming that we need to vote Dems to stop fascism does not PRECLUDE the issue that Dems are ALSO in favor of all of the progressive issues that are floating out there. Not every Democrat. But that just means, JUST LIKE I'VE SAID MULTIPLE TIMES... Vote in more Democrats and make Manchin-moderates MOOT POINT. This isn't difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 9 hours ago, mtutiger said: Couldn't the same thing be said about climate change funding in the BBB? Isn't that pretty abstract to the average person as well? Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 Now this is the kinda pressure you put on Manchin... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 9 hours ago, pfife said: but isn't it the Democrats trying to get the progressives to vote for them, not vice versa? Why wouldn't progressives vote for Democrats? Which issues do Republicans hold that speak to progressives? (A) Hampering or outright eliminating the right of POC to vote? (B) Calling Climate Change a Hoax, or a Lie, or Overblown? (C) Support of the Coal Industry above all others? (D) Overturning Roe v Wade? (E) Giving more tax breaks to the top 1% earners in this country? I mean, they certainly do not have enough tax breaks... (F) Supporting the rights of Employers over Employees, in all cases? (G) Preventing the passage of an Infrastructure Bill? (H) Eliminating health care coverage for at least 25 million Americans? Which issue is it exactly, that progressives should then WANT to vote for a Republican? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 9 hours ago, pfife said: no, the discussion since yesterday morning has been critical of progressives not voting for democrats - there hasn't been any discussion of Democrats voting for progressives. So how did AOC and Tlaib and others get voted into office...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 6 minutes ago, mtutiger said: Now this is the kinda pressure you put on Manchin... Perfect. Except isn't he an owner and therefore could care less what the workers are actually going through? He's big business, not blue collar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cartman Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 AOC’s Grasp of American Governance Is a ‘Farce’ Quote The reality, as they know, is that the Democrats’ legislation is probably more unpopular in Manchin’s home state — with 74 percent opposing — than any other in the nation. So it’s somewhat odd to hear people who claim to be guardians of “democracy” arguing that a senator owes his loyalty to his party over his state. That is, until you quickly remember that the selective and temporary championing of crude majoritarianism by Democrats is a cynical play for power. Spot. On. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 7 minutes ago, Cartman said: AOC’s Grasp of American Governance Is a ‘Farce’ Spot. On. Not as cynical as the Republican Party's outright boot-licking of fascism and their disgraced fascist leader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 8 minutes ago, Cartman said: AOC’s Grasp of American Governance Is a ‘Farce’ Spot. On. And if you want to talk about the most Farcical grasp of American Governance then we're talking about that Brainless MF'ing Moron Donald J. Trump. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 11 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: Not as cynical as the Republican Party's outright boot-licking of fascism and their disgraced fascist leader. You mean he's not a guardian of democracy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 20 minutes ago, Cartman said: AOC’s Grasp of American Governance Is a ‘Farce’ Spot. On. No Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 Still waiting for Cartman to post in one of the sports forums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 Well I guess our talk about Manchin voting based on his constituents was totally irrelevant. Of course the reason for Manchins vote is.... wait for it..... Manchins feefees!!!!! I can't imagine why ppl wouldnt rush to elect more of this shit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 (edited) I can't imagine why they would rush out and elect more people like Manchin either. That's why people in PA, WI, OH, FL, NC etc need to elect more Democrats to make Manchin irrelevant then sit at home. Edited December 21, 2021 by Motown Bombers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 12 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: Still waiting for Cartman to post in one of the sports forums. Every time I see him post, I'm reminded of how Jim Nantz called him "Cart Man" during the Cowboys Thanksgiving game lol 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edman85 Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 14 hours ago, pfife said: Seems like Nate is saying "don't believe that empiricism here's my opinion instead". Nate's org rated Data for Progress as a B. So should I believe Nate's opinion or Nate's org's ratings? They seem contradictory. Is he? Or is he just using Bayseian reasoning? One poll is not going to go away from a very confident prior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 1 hour ago, Edman85 said: Is he? Or is he just using Bayseian reasoning? One poll is not going to go away from a very confident prior. What new evidence came out after I screenshotted his website grading data for progress as a B? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 (edited) or maybe the bayesian reasoning isn't about D4P but for the whole BBB situation to which I would ask again, what new evidence came out about BBB or Manchin or the presidential election that lead to hypothesis readjustment associated with Bayes reasoning? The evidence around these is not new. It was almost 1 year ago that Trump won WV by >40. It's been even longer that everyone knew Trump would roll in WV. That's not new evidence, it's the oldest evidence of any component. Was his hypothesis pre-adjustment via Bayesian reasoning that...... BBB was popular in WV? Then the NEW evidence that trump won by 40 entered the chat? Edited December 21, 2021 by pfife Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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