Biden's presidency

[Jim Cowan]

2 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Aside from their politics, as Tater says, they were (and a lot of people still are) fundamentally wrong about the nature of the future economy as well. You still have to have your people employed by direct wealth producing enterprises if you want to have a vibrant middle class. The 'information/service' age economy that they thought was Utopia in 1992 was a pipe dream. IT has turned out to be more easily outsourced than the businesses it was hoped it could replace. And the fact is that some primary wealth producing enterprise has to make enough ROI to pay for all those services and IT out of its excess profit margins. Taking stuff that is worth nothing and turning into stuff that is worth something remains, and will remain the ticket for middle class employment opportunity for as long as real people live in real physical space.

Yes we heard so much about the "service economy", the economy of the future, and a friend used to ask how economic growth would occur when we were all cutting each others' hair.

[Mr.TaterSalad]

22 hours ago, buddha said:

you sound just like donald trump.

The facts back me up on the devastation NAFTA produced with manufacturing and industrial job losses. Also, Trump never once proposed a VAT tax and was all over the map on tariffs. Outsourcing exists because a favorable business, regulatory, and tax climate allow it to exist.

[buddha]

2 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

The facts back me up on the devastation NAFTA produced with manufacturing and industrial job losses. Also, Trump never once proposed a VAT tax and was all over the map on tariffs. Outsourcing exists because a favorable business, regulatory, and tax climate allow it to exist.

right, but you sound protectionist, just like trump.

its ok, you can admit you and donald dont disagree on everything.

the "facts" on nafta and all trade agreements show winners and losers.  american consumers benefitted greatly, american manual laborers did not.

[gehringer_2]

31 minutes ago, buddha said:

american manual laborers did not.

Nafta was only one piece, it was the abdication of skilled production to the orient that killed the middle class, which was populated not by manual laborers but by skilled ones.

Edited October 16, 2021 by gehringer_2

[1984Echoes]

The severe manufacturing job losses happened after China was allowed to enter the WTO. Estimated 3.7 million jobs of which 2.8 million were manufacturing.

12/11/2001. Bush.

There was a lot of bleeding beforehand... starting in the mid 70's when OPEC started up and gas prices shot up. And... cheap, fuel-efficient Japanese cars that outsold American made cars.

We were also losing these jobs because other automakers, specifically Japanese, were automated or automating whilst the Big 3 Unions successfully prevented the Big 3 from automating. And our Labor & Benefit costs continuously rose from the highest labor costs in the world to... the highest labor costs in the world.

NAFTA did a lot of damage.

But there are a lot of moving parts to this issue. It's not just one. And U.S. Labor has a part in this fiasco, they are NOT innocent.

[Tigerbomb13]

Special interests win again, but that’s not surprising at all. 

[CMRivdogs]

Tear down Wild and Wonderful and make it a parking lot

[chasfh]

3 hours ago, Tigerbomb13 said:

Special interests win again, but that’s not surprising at all. 

Just doing his (real) job.

[romad1]

So, just a random notion creeps into my head.  I wonder if Deripaska's close relationship with Mitch and Rand is going to be a thing used to get Mitch to move on some infrastructure votes.   If so, it would be some pool of a not-so-clean variety. 

[pfife]

LFG

 

[Tiger337]

On 10/15/2021 at 3:45 PM, buddha said:

you sound just like donald trump.

That's like the worst think you could ever say to someone.  You should apologize.  

[Tiger337]

On 10/16/2021 at 5:30 PM, buddha said:

its ok, you can admit you and donald dont disagree on everything.

 

I doubt Trump knew anything about NAFTA beyond some bullet points he was given.  Opposing it was just a way to get votes.  

[mtutiger]

8 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I doubt Trump knew anything about NAFTA beyond some bullet points he was given.  Opposing it was just a way to get votes.  

I think Trump not knowing much beyond bullet points is probably true of most issues, but NAFTA isn't one of them... he's been protectionist for as long as he's been a public figure.

There's a debate to be had about how much he really knows about the issue, for sure, but it's one of the few areas where he's been consistent.

[oblong]

He saw the attention Perot was getting so he jumped on it. 

[Tiger337]

2 hours ago, mtutiger said:

I think Trump not knowing much beyond bullet points is probably true of most issues, but NAFTA isn't one of them... he's been protectionist for as long as he's been a public figure.

There's a debate to be had about how much he really knows about the issue, for sure, but it's one of the few areas where he's been consistent.

So, he's been consistent with the bullet points.  

[buddha]

22 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

I doubt Trump knew anything about NAFTA beyond some bullet points he was given.  Opposing it was just a way to get votes.  

sure, but the point remains.

the populist left and right have a mutual distaste for international trade agreements that make it easier for companies to outsource their labor to cheaper suppliers.

those of us in the middle love the benefits of cheaper goods and companies love the profits and ability to avoid those messy environmental regulations.

if we didnt have this completely toxic political environment, one would think it would be common ground to get something done.

[Jim Cowan]

Want to do something to protect North American jobs?  It's easy.  Don't shop at Walmart.  Anyone who does shop at Walmart needs to STFU about China's dominant role in manufacturing.

[chasfh]

On 10/30/2021 at 11:39 AM, pfife said:

LFG

 

IWBIWISI.

[romad1]

2 minutes ago, chasfh said:

IWBIWISI.

Just in time to lose VA's electoral votes to the Carlysle Group

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, Jim Cowan said:

Want to do something to protect North American jobs?  It's easy.  Don't shop at Walmart.  Anyone who does shop at Walmart needs to STFU about China's dominant role in manufacturing.

Super hard to avoid where Walmart is literally the only decent-sized retail outlet, which is true of a lot of C- and D-county America.

Easy to avoid in the big city, though. I stepped foot in a city of Chicago Walmart exactly once, and as far as I can tell, there’s no need to ever do so again.

 

[gehringer_2]

19 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Super hard to avoid where Walmart is literally the only decent-sized retail outlet, which is true of a lot of C- and D-county America.

Easy to avoid in the big city, though. I stepped foot in a city of Chicago Walmart exactly once, and as far as I can tell, there’s no need to ever do so again.

 

Walmart dithered for years before they finally opened the store in Washtenaw county near Ypsi. They closed it last year. I guess there is still one in Saline - never been there.

Edited October 31, 2021 by gehringer_2

[romad1]

I regularly read up on obscure defense blogs and watch various youtube videos on Chinese and Russian weapons systems.  I always think that the most effective weapons Russia has are their trolls and prostitutes (particularly the kind that do wet shows) and China's best weapon are their cargo container ships with a bunch of crap we could make in this country but don't because the toothless and ignorant won't insist we build it here. 

[oblong]

2 hours ago, romad1 said:

I regularly read up on obscure defense blogs and watch various youtube videos on Chinese and Russian weapons systems.  I always think that the most effective weapons Russia has are their trolls and prostitutes (particularly the kind that do wet shows) and China's best weapon are their cargo container ships with a bunch of crap we could make in this country but don't because the toothless and ignorant won't insist we build it here. 

I always snicker when I see right wingers play up the “made in USA” mantra because it’s their adherence to what they perceive as capitalism and focus on market returns is why we import so much cheap stuff. The love affair with squeezing every last nickel out of the process so that the investors are happy is why this situation exists.  Look in the mirror.  

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, oblong said:

I always snicker when I see right wingers play up the “made in USA” mantra because it’s their adherence to what they perceive as capitalism and focus on market returns is why we import so much cheap stuff. The love affair with squeezing every last nickel out of the process so that the investors are happy is why this situation exists.  Look in the mirror.  

I agree with your premise, and I would further stipulate that those people playing up “Made in USA” are right wing elites who couldn’t give less of a shit where anything they personally buy is made, but they know that the phrase triggers red hats’ amygdalae, leading to compliance, money, and votes.

Edited November 1, 2021 by chasfh

[Tiger337]

I never care about the country of origin of anything I buy.  It's usually not a straightforward answer anyway.  I just buy the best product which fits my budget.  Isn't that how the free market is supposed to work?