Biden's presidency

[romad1]

Biden should start exercising some executive power on the coal industry now

[Mr.TaterSalad]

9 minutes ago, buddha said:

a politician from west virginia supporting the coal industry should be a surprise to no one.

A politician who talks out both sides of his mouth (Manchin) should surprise no one either. He had no problem with the not deficit neutral defense bill and the non deficit neutral bipartisan infrastructure bill.

[gehringer_2]

15 minutes ago, buddha said:

a politician from west virginia supporting the coal industry should be a surprise to no one.

Manchin is already too late to anything for the coal industry. Since 2010 38% of WVa mines have closed and production is down 53%. He'd be doing his constituents a lot more good trying to pass BBB and send some of those dollars to his state. Coal is not coming back.

[buddha]

2 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Manchin is already too late to anything for the coal industry. Since 2010 38% of WVa mines have closed and production is down 53%. He'd be doing his constituents a lot more good trying to pass BBB and send some of those dollars to his state. Coal is not coming back.

yes, but regardless, a politician from west virginia supporting that industry is not a surprise.

[buddha]

8 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

A politician who talks out both sides of his mouth (Manchin) should surprise no one either. 

it would be a surprise if any politician didnt do that.

[mtutiger]

8 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Manchin is already too late to anything for the coal industry. Since 2010 38% of WVa mines have closed and production is down 53%. He'd be doing his constituents a lot more good trying to pass BBB and send some of those dollars to his state. Coal is not coming back.

The facts are what they are, but at the end of the day, none of that is gonna change Manchin's position. And over and over through this negotiation, people have basically pretended that Manchin doesn't exist or that they can just plow forward on all of this stuff without him.

I get it, it sucks... I'm certainly not a huge fan of his. But you have to play with the team that you have. And they are playing with 50 Senators and a VP tiebreaker. Which ain't much.. No amount of pretending otherwise will change that.

So figure out something that will get the 50+1, and get it done. Same as it ever was.

Edited December 20, 2021 by mtutiger

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, buddha said:

yes, but regardless, a politician from west virginia supporting that industry is not a surprise.

until the windmill builders are ready to donate more to his campaigns than the dying mining co's anyway. Who knows, that day may not be that far off.

[pfife]

Yup. 

[Mr.TaterSalad]

2 hours ago, buddha said:

yes, but regardless, a politician from west virginia supporting that industry is not a surprise.

Joe Manchin has made $5.2M from his coal company — and gets big donations from fossil-fuel industry

He's more than supporting an industry, he and his son are profiting off coal energy while the world burns. So we are supposed to sit here and watch Nero continue to fiddle I guess.

[mtutiger]

1 hour ago, pfife said:

Yup. 

Joe Manchin, the guy who basically gives the D the Senate majority at the moment, represents a state that Trump won by almost 45%.

If he were strictly doing shit that voters in his state wanted, he wouldn't even be at the negotiating table.

Edited December 20, 2021 by mtutiger

[Mr.TaterSalad]

4 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Joe Manchin, the guy who basically gives the D the Senate majority at the moment, represents a state that Trump won by almost 45%.

If he were strictly doing shit that voters in his state wanted, he wouldn't even be at the negotiating table.

Voters in West Virginia support Build Back Better

"We then tested whether or not likely voters in the state see an economic, rather than just moral, rationale for investing in caregiving. We find that by a 36-point margin, likely voters agree that investing in the caregiving sector creates economic growth by allowing the family members of those receiving care to enter the workforce (64 percent agree, 28 percent disagree).Majorities of Democrats, Independents, and Republicans agree with this arguments, doing so by margins of 75-points, 20-points, and 29-points, respectively."

 

[Mr.TaterSalad]

Joe Manchin is the quintessential example of the problems we have with grifting, financial self promotion, and big corporate money in politics. In the case of Manchin, he falls into all three categories. He's a grifter whose family coal company is benefiting from his being in office, he's all about promoting his own business interests over those of the people, and he's beholden to lobbyists and corporate interests, particularly from the energy sector. If we are going to sit here and go nuts about Trump, his family, his cronies, and their grift, than equal scrutiny needs to be given to Joe Manchin. 

Edited December 20, 2021 by Mr.TaterSalad

[mtutiger]

7 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Voters in West Virginia support Build Back Better

"We then tested whether or not likely voters in the state see an economic, rather than just moral, rationale for investing in caregiving. We find that by a 36-point margin, likely voters agree that investing in the caregiving sector creates economic growth by allowing the family members of those receiving care to enter the workforce (64 percent agree, 28 percent disagree).Majorities of Democrats, Independents, and Republicans agree with this arguments, doing so by margins of 75-points, 20-points, and 29-points, respectively."

 

Did they poll Joe Biden's BBB bill?

Thats the problem with issue polling... the moment you link the issue with an actual politician (especially one who lost a state by almost 45 points), I'd bet those numbers are big time underwater.

Edited December 20, 2021 by mtutiger

[Mr.TaterSalad]

2 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Did they poll Joe Biden's BBB bill?

Thats the problem with issue polling... the moment you link the issue with an actual politician (especially one who lost a state by almost 45 points), I'd bet those numbers are big time underwater.

Does Manchin really feel he's going to lose because he passed universal pre-k, childcare, and helped to negotiate lower prescription drug prices? We need to stop pretending that Manchin cares about the political consequences of this bill or that he has some principled stand against deficit spending and inflation. If he did, he'd have voted down the $745 billion dollar, not deficit neutral defense bill last week.

This is about a man with numerous climate-related conflicts and ties to the coal industry. A man whose looking to continue his grift and profit off the office he's in. This has nothing to do with principal or politics.

[pfife]

25 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Joe Manchin, the guy who basically gives the D the Senate majority at the moment, represents a state that Trump won by almost 45%.

If he were strictly doing shit that voters in his state wanted, he wouldn't even be at the negotiating table.

my understanding is BBB polls quite well in WV

 

[mtutiger]

Just now, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Does Manchin really feel he's going to lose because he passed universal pre-k, childcare, and helped to negotiate lower prescription drug prices?

I mean, there's a reason that Paula Jean Swearingen got her ass kicked against Capito last cycle.... I believe he understands his state better than we do and that, if anything, he is well to the left of average for West Virginians. It is what it is.

Again, I don't love having to rely on his vote. But on the other hand, Russ Feingold, Katie McGinty, Bill Nelson, Sara Gideon.... There have been countless Senate races that could have been won over the past four years that would have made that 50th Senator someone aside from Joe Manchin.

But they weren't, this is what we have. And you don't fix it by taking your bat and ball and going home, you do it by electing more people so he's not your 50th vote.

[mtutiger]

Just now, pfife said:

my understanding is BBB polls quite well in WV

 

And as I said to Tater, you could write that question as "Joe Biden's BBB Bill" and get a drastically different result. Because negative partisanship is a thing.

[buddha]

kind of like elizabeth warren protecting the medical device industry.  strangely enough, that industry has huge ties to massachusetts.

but yes, joe manchin is single handedly killing the planet, says people from the state of michigan whose representatives in government have been attempting to shelter the polluting auto industry for years.

the planet is being "being killed" by china and india and your and my suv (and jeff bezos' rocket joy rides)  not by joe manchin.

i dont disagree with your premise about joe manchin.  he's a politician.  lying, grifting, and manuevering the rules and money to help big business is what most of them do.  its a shame.

[pfife]

2 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

And as I said to Tater, you could write that question as "Joe Biden's BBB Bill" and get a drastically different result. Because negative partisanship is a thing.

but he voted for other Joe Biden's bills so is it a new thing?

Edited December 20, 2021 by pfife

[mtutiger]

1 minute ago, pfife said:

but he voted for other Joe Biden's bills

 

31 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Joe Manchin, the guy who basically gives the D the Senate majority at the moment, represents a state that Trump won by almost 45%.

If he were strictly doing shit that voters in his state wanted, he wouldn't even be at the negotiating table.

 

[pfife]

ok I already responded to that so I guess you win because you repeated yourself?

[pfife]

I guess every time polling is brought up by anyone we just mention negative partisanship now if we don't like the polling?   Fuck if I would have known that I wouldn't have used the "hidden trump voters" approach to blowing up polls

Edited December 20, 2021 by pfife

[pfife]

This is just more of what was in the tweet.   Doesn't matter what Manchin does, it's voters moral responsibility to vote for Democrats anyways.   That's what this thread has been all day. 

The notion that voters owe anyone their votes is utterly ridiculous.... and also the pathway to defeat. 

[mtutiger]

Just now, pfife said:

ok I already responded to that so I guess you win because you repeated yourself?

And I've already stated that I believe that he (and his voting record) are well to the left of where the median voter in his state sits right now. The fact that he has supported a number of things Biden has proposed to date reflects that.

Maybe, just maybe, he doesn't agree with aspects of how the current bill is? Maybe he doesn't like that its a grab bag of programs that only last for 2 years instead of a few programs set to last for 10?

That's actually a legit criticism of the House bill, and he has repeated it over and over and it really hasn't been dealt with... Instead, when he makes his statement today (reiterating this criticism), people act shocked and angered, as if they haven't been paying attention. And talk about Lucy and the football and all that crap.

I'm just sort of tired of it... the situation is what it is. He's number 50, figure something out that he'll go with and take the W.

[pfife]

3 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

And I've already stated that I believe that he (and his voting record) are well to the left of where the median voter in his state sits right now. The fact that he has supported a number of things Biden has proposed to date reflects that.

 

So you're on both sides of the coin.   You get to argue he's to the left of his constituency, as quoted here,  and also argue that he's  only doing what his constituency would allow because negative partisanship is a thing - which you also did within the last 10 minutes.

I'm not sure what you want to discuss with me.  You literally have all of it covered.  I guess since you've argued both arguments people should vote Democratic no matter what they and Manchin do.

Edited December 20, 2021 by pfife