mtutiger Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, pfife said: So you're on both sides of the coin. You get to argue he's to the left of his constituency, as quoted here, and also argue that he's only doing what his constituency would allow because negative partisanship is a thing - which you also did within the last 10 minutes. I literally gave you a specific reason why he may not support the current iteration - that he has repeated frequently over the past few months and reiterated this morning on FOX - in the paragraphs that you didn't quote. Again, the debate about how many programs/how long was never really dealt with in this process. And yeah, if Manchin has a philosophical difference with the House bill on that subject, that seems like something that could be a roadblock. Edited December 20, 2021 by mtutiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 2 minutes ago, mtutiger said: I literally gave you a specific reason why he may not support the current iteration - that he has repeated frequently over the past few months and reiterated this morning on FOX - in the paragraphs that you didn't quote. You are the one who quoted me, Chief. oh boy...... you in fact quoted the tweet I posted from lawboy. That is why we're chatting now. It's in the thread. the least you could do is be accurate about what is easily provable in this thread before stealing my schtick man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 (edited) So yeah, it's a fair question to ask what you're trying to discuss with me since you literally started a discussion with me and then argued both sides of the discussion. Edited December 20, 2021 by pfife Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, pfife said: oh boy...... you in fact quoted the tweet I posted from lawboy. That is why we're chatting now. It's in the thread. the least you could do is be accurate about what is easily provable in this thread before stealing my schtick man Yep, I was wrong. I apologize. Do you want to discuss programs/length and how that may be a legit sticking point, or am I just wasting my time trying to talk about this stuff with you? Edited December 20, 2021 by mtutiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, mtutiger said: Yep, I was wrong. I apologize. Do you want to discuss programs/length and how that may be a legit sticking point, or am I just wasting my time trying to talk about this stuff with you? not sure why you're being so condescending with me still after this performance you just had, but whatever you already wasted your time bro I didn't have anything to do with it. Sadly, by quoting me, you also wasted my time with it. You seem to have no concern about wasting my time so I'm not feeling so compelled to provide a corresponding evaluation. Edited December 20, 2021 by pfife 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 3 minutes ago, pfife said: not sure why you're being so condescending with me still after this performance you just had, but whatever you already wasted your time bro I didn't have anything to do with it. Sadly, by quoting me, you also wasted my time with it. You seem to have no concern about wasting my time so I'm not feeling so compelled to provide a corresponding evaluation. Cool. Have a great night! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 Just now, mtutiger said: Cool. Have a great night! planning to redouble my fortitude to fulfill my moral responsibility to vote for democrats because joe manchin votes to the left of his constituency except when he doesn't because negative partisanship is a thing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 1 hour ago, Mr.TaterSalad said: Voters in West Virginia support Build Back Better "We then tested whether or not likely voters in the state see an economic, rather than just moral, rationale for investing in caregiving. We find that by a 36-point margin, likely voters agree that investing in the caregiving sector creates economic growth by allowing the family members of those receiving care to enter the workforce (64 percent agree, 28 percent disagree).Majorities of Democrats, Independents, and Republicans agree with this arguments, doing so by margins of 75-points, 20-points, and 29-points, respectively." voters don't pay for Senate campaigns, but coal companies do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 well we'll see if they're going to do the smart thing and try to pass the stuff that will actually have the votes. Just take all of the crap out he objects to and pass the rest. being not trump isn't going to win the election this time unfortunately Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, pfife said: well we'll see if they're going to do the smart thing and try to pass the stuff that will actually have the votes. Just take all of the crap out he objects to and pass the rest. being not trump isn't going to win the election this time unfortunately Yeah, Dems have to realize politics is not like football. If you score, you might actually get to keep the ball too. Edited December 20, 2021 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 2 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: Voters have to realize politics is not like football. If you score, you might actually get to keep the ball too. I think the midterms are all an enthusiasm match. And enthusiasm is high on the other side. You got mf's going to freaking school board meetings where they don't even have freakin kids right now on that side. Who's ever that motivated? meanwhile the Democrats are basically just not-republican'ing. I mean I know they're doing judges but they need to do the things that motivate their voters too. in a lot of ways the midterms after the election remind me of the championship team, the following season, just doesn't have the hunger for winning and it makes it difficult to repeat. I hear commentators say that stuff on sports all the time and it seems similar, they need to keep their side motivated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 2 hours ago, pfife said: Yup. The flipside to that is that if people wanted elected officials to do MORE shit that people want them to do then they should elect... MORE DEMOCRATS. Sort of circular logic that "regular people", or voters, are employing there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 1 hour ago, Mr.TaterSalad said: Joe Manchin has made $5.2M from his coal company — and gets big donations from fossil-fuel industry He's more than supporting an industry, he and his son are profiting off coal energy while the world burns. So we are supposed to sit here and watch Nero continue to fiddle I guess. Solution: Elect MORE DEMOCRAT Senators which in turn... makes Manchin MOOT POINT. Simple logic, actually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 (edited) I agree with electing more Democrats for sure. I totally don't think that criticizing voters for potentially not voting for Democrats is the way to get people to elect more Democrats. Edited December 20, 2021 by pfife Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 (edited) One big issue I see with the discussion around this bill is that it supposes its the "be all end all" in its current form.... But there are a lot of pitfalls that come with a grab bag approach with many programs that all sunset in two years. Not to mention the utility of some of these programs (PreK is an excellent example - it's not clear how accessible it will be to many Americans depending on what state they live in). On one hand, I see "pass the bill to motivate the base", but is it a guarantee that the bill as written will have no downsides when implemented? I just think that philosophical debate about amount of programs and years is the thing that needs to be figured out. Dem leaders tried to plow ahead without engaging Manchin on that, given his consistency on that complaint. The end result may be something like 2-3 programs for 10 years + climate... if the programs are well implemented, I don't see how that wouldn't be a win in this environment. Edited December 20, 2021 by mtutiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 Honest question - how many more democrats are needed to be elected to pass this bill as it is right now? Does anyone here thing Manchin was the only that was against it? Do we assume Sinema is too, and thus we'd need to elect *at least* two more Democrats? Is it more realistic to think they need more like 4 or 5 more democratic senators to pass this bill? What if a portion of the 4 or 5 elected are not actually in support if it, so even more are needed? I personally think there are others out there that are very very glad to have let Manchin take the heat for sinking that bill b/c they wanted to vote against it. At some point, it seems fair to me to think, well maybe the Democratic party doesn't actually want to pass BBB. If I'm a voter that then wants things that are in BBB, why would I vote for the Democrats? Why is this unreasonable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 Pass whatever we can. What gets tossed to the cutting room floor can be run on in 2022. "I would have supported passing _______ but our current Republican Senator said No. He (or she) also said no to _____, _____, ______ and _____. If you want these passed, elect me. We need more Dem Senators and we need them now." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 8 minutes ago, pfife said: I agree with electing more Democrats for sure. I totally don't think that criticizing voters for potentially not voting for Democrats is the way to get people to elect more Democrats. If Dem voters are all discouraged and butt-hurt and stay home and don't vote than they ABSOLUTELY are at fault for LETTING this country go to the fascists. End of discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 (edited) 1 minute ago, 1984Echoes said: If Dem voters are all discouraged and butt-hurt and stay home and don't vote than they ABSOLUTELY are at fault for LETTING this country go to the fascists. End of discussion. it's the fascists at fault if the country goes to the fascists I'm not onboard with whitewashing fascism to bash progressives, ymmv Edited December 20, 2021 by pfife Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 saying they're butthurt and blaming them for fascism instead of the fascists doesn't strike me as a way to get them to vote how you want them to vote. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 33 minutes ago, pfife said: I agree with electing more Democrats for sure. I totally don't think that criticizing voters for potentially not voting for Democrats is the way to get people to elect more Democrats. well, sure. But us criticizing them here is not going to be the formulation of the Democratic Congressional Campaign effort.....at least I would hope! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 14 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: well, sure. But us criticizing them here is not going to be the formulation of the Democratic Congressional Campaign effort.....at least I would hope! I think it repells people from democrats whether it's their campaign effort or not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 (edited) Listening to Manchin on FNS.... dude says that business funds stuff for ten years, not 1, 3, 5 year increments. Lmao spoken like a senator not in business . Nope no 3 year contracts in business lol!!!! Edited December 20, 2021 by pfife Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 On the discussion of length of time, will people acknowledge that giving the population a benefit for 2-3 years and having them taken away once they sunset may not exactly be a political gold mine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edman85 Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 9 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said: Voters in West Virginia support Build Back Better "We then tested whether or not likely voters in the state see an economic, rather than just moral, rationale for investing in caregiving. We find that by a 36-point margin, likely voters agree that investing in the caregiving sector creates economic growth by allowing the family members of those receiving care to enter the workforce (64 percent agree, 28 percent disagree).Majorities of Democrats, Independents, and Republicans agree with this arguments, doing so by margins of 75-points, 20-points, and 29-points, respectively." One poll from a thinktank does not a public opinion make. 1. Publication bias. "Data for progress" isn't going to publish something that doesn't fit their narrative. 2. Response bias. The bulk of West Virginians aren't going to answer a poll from "Data for progress." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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