Edman85 Posted November 20, 2022 Share Posted November 20, 2022 36 minutes ago, chasfh said: Interesting. Any idea how this compares with other teams? That would be tough to attain. I was able to get hard copies of the 1995-2000 Tigers Media guides on the cheap several years ago, which was my source for a lot of things. Archived baseball coverage of that era is very lacking, and the BR database is spotty (plus the rules changes make it tough to ID non-tenders before the 1997 CBA). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edman85 Posted November 20, 2022 Share Posted November 20, 2022 The main reason for excess non-tenders this year (i.e. the four pre-arb guys) has to do with the day being moved way up within the DFA period of the Rule 5 Protection day. A lot more players got non-tendered this year that may not have in the past. I wouldn't read much more into the increase this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motor City Sonics Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 Scott Harris isn't interested in keeping any Sub .320 OBP guys around. If he can get rid of them, he will. Remember, that was his statement in his press conference - understanding the strike zone. The Castros and Candy are not going to be the Tiger Way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KL2 Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 14 hours ago, 1984Echoes said: This was my take from that list... A lot of Avila-detritus non-tenders Wasn't some of it just the teams though? LIke in the 1990s and 2000 we just needed warm bodies so nobody was getting non tender. ALso the arbitration money was a lot lower. Then in the Dave years he didn't have any young players cause he went with established guys. So there was nobody to make a decision on whether to cut after year 4 or 5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 1 hour ago, KL2 said: Wasn't some of it just the teams though? LIke in the 1990s and 2000 we just needed warm bodies so nobody was getting non tender. ALso the arbitration money was a lot lower. Then in the Dave years he didn't have any young players cause he went with established guys. So there was nobody to make a decision on whether to cut after year 4 or 5. 5 of 9 players that might have all been in the starting batting order together in a given game last season have been released/non-tendered/waived. No way to sugar coat that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeyAbbott Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 On a totally different subject, how confident are we that TORK! gets fixed (as a player)this year? my confidence level is roughly 37%. My concern is that he seemed to be having way too many problems hitting fast balls down the middle based upon what I remember seeing at the close of last year. Maybe I am simply being nervous Norman, on the other hand, the brain trust moves by the Tigers indicates there is some concern there as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 28 minutes ago, HeyAbbott said: he seemed to be having way too many problems hitting fast balls down the middle Pretty much. The 'why' is the hard part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RatkoVarda Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 to me, the utter incompetence the organization displayed all year regarding hitting clouds any analysis of Tork he still had solid BB and K numbers, and some bad luck, decent EVs but clearly something was (is?) way off; terrifying to think we have yet another slow bat prospect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigermojo Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 I'm concerned about all of the hitters and most of the pitchers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeyAbbott Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 I am concerned that both Tork and Jung may be busts. The anxiety I have over Jung is probably irrational. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenacious D Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 15 minutes ago, HeyAbbott said: I am concerned that both Tork and Jung may be busts. The anxiety I have over Jung is probably irrational. don't forget Greene. stockpiling prospects was not a bad strategy, but we should have dealt some of them at their peak for proven players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RatkoVarda Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 Candy is still one of the best short term 3B options out there; from Freep Before cutting ties with Candelario, the Tigers attempted to bring him back at a cheaper rate. It’s unclear if those negotiations will continue, 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackPine Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 11 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said: Candy is still one of the best short term 3B options out there; from Freep Before cutting ties with Candelario, the Tigers attempted to bring him back at a cheaper rate. It’s unclear if those negotiations will continue, I think he'll be back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motor City Sonics Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 11 minutes ago, JackPine said: I think he'll be back Is he still a decent OBP guy? I have my doubts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenacious D Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 Why risk cutting him if you really want him back? To save a couple of million $? I don’t understand that, unless they didn’t see him as their clear-cut 3B upon returning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted November 21, 2022 Author Share Posted November 21, 2022 1 hour ago, JackPine said: I think he'll be back I’d be surprised if someone else didn’t pick him up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 1 hour ago, RatkoVarda said: Candy is still one of the best short term 3B options out there; from Freep Before cutting ties with Candelario, the Tigers attempted to bring him back at a cheaper rate. It’s unclear if those negotiations will continue, He gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted November 21, 2022 Author Share Posted November 21, 2022 7 minutes ago, Tenacious D said: Why risk cutting him if you really want him back? To save a couple of million $? I don’t understand that, unless they didn’t see him as their clear-cut 3B upon returning. This is exactly my problem with this move. If the Tigers think 2022 is really what Jeimer is, then fine, kick him to the curb and don’t look back. If Jeimer truly is done done, as everyone who called for his head on a spike seems to think, then this is definitely the right move. Instead, it looks like the Tigers would be happy to run Jeimer out there at 3B for another year, as long as a few more million dollars stay in Baby Doc’s pocket. In other words, it’s not about the performance, since this proves they would be perfectly fine with whatever Jeimer’s performance will be. Instead, it’s about the money. They just wanted to play chicken with him to drive his price down. OMMV on this, but I think that’s horseshit, man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackPine Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 I hope they play the market a bit look for someone else bit I could see a few months going by, neither candy or the tigers finding a different situation and they bring him back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 5 hours ago, RatkoVarda said: to me, the utter incompetence the organization displayed all year regarding hitting clouds any analysis of Tork he still had solid BB and K numbers, and some bad luck, decent EVs but clearly something was (is?) way off; terrifying to think we have yet another slow bat prospect I'm hoping it is simply "thinking too much" and the new hitting staff will find some way to get him to relax at the plate and start hitting easy FB's... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 2 hours ago, JackPine said: I think he'll be back I'm already on board with that... It'll just be for 1 year so... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 48 minutes ago, chasfh said: .... In other words, it’s not about the performance, since this proves they would be perfectly fine with whatever Jeimer’s performance will be. Instead, it’s about the money. They just wanted to play chicken with him to drive his price down. OMMV on this, but I think that’s horseshit, man. The alternative theory is that Harris is applying a specific $-value to projected performance, and sticking to it. It may not be perfect... and can lead to the charges you have levied... but I think in the long-term, it bodes well for the Org in not overpaying so often for underperformance... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted November 21, 2022 Author Share Posted November 21, 2022 (edited) 24 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: The alternative theory is that Harris is applying a specific $-value to projected performance, and sticking to it. It may not be perfect... and can lead to the charges you have levied... but I think in the long-term, it bodes well for the Org in not overpaying so often for underperformance... We can quibble about whether Jeimer is the 4-win player he was in 2020-21, or whether he's worth the 3 wins he is projected for next year by ZIPs. But if we think Jeimer is worth at least 2 wins, which I believe, then he would definitely be worth the $7 million or so he'd've made through arb. And if he's not worth at least two wins, then why would we want him out there at any price? Why bother handing him the job if only he takes the pay cut? Might as well just boot him, change the locks behind him, and hold a waiver wire sweepstakes. The only way I could accept a justification for their lowball offer to Jeimer is if the Tigers decided they simply don't care what they get out of third base next season, because they don't expect to win in any event, and whoever ends up there is just a placeholder for the chicken that hasn't hatched yet anyway. If that's the explicit strategy, OK, fine, I get it. Then any warm body at third will do in 2023. However, if they were thinking of taking a real shot at recovering whatever the post-May-8-2021 magic was, which is not a crazy unthinkable idea, then they need at least a 2-win guy at third, which is worth more than $7 million, and my opinion is that Jeimer has at least a 50-50 shot of exceeding that with whoever he ends up playing for. Edited November 21, 2022 by chasfh 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 Yeah... I mean, I was puzzled too as you can tell by my earlier posts on Candy... I wanted him tendered instead of Non... Just hewing to my usual optimism and looking for that silver lining. I'm hoping it's more a "prove it to us" offer level rather than a "we know we can get you cheap" offer... It doesn't bother me if they think he "could" get back to a 2 win or better guy but they feel that Candy has to be motivated to achieve that and therefore a "prove it" offer instead... I don't know, just fishing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeyAbbott Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 3 hours ago, RatkoVarda said: Candy is still one of the best short term 3B options out there; from Freep Before cutting ties with Candelario, the Tigers attempted to bring him back at a cheaper rate. It’s unclear if those negotiations will continue, Candelario, according to Baseball reference, was less than a 1 WAR player last year. His OPS+ in '22 declined from '21 and both were under league average , although in '21 it was close. I tend to think that it is not unreasonable to assume that Candelario will be less than a 1 WAR player in '23. In my mind, this is a calculated risk that someone of equal to better than Jemier can be found . I am somewhat vexed that they supposedly from an earlier post tried offering him less money. I think it is highly understandable for a degree of suspicion to be cast on the decision to move on from Candy. There is risk regardless of whether he was kept or not. Whether it is riskier to keep or move on from Candy it debateable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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