Motor City Sonics Posted November 25, 2022 Share Posted November 25, 2022 (edited) I don't think Harris leaves his hometown team to come here unless he got certain assurances IN WRITING that seemed appealing to him. Cheap & Controllable might be the 2023 way for 2 reasons. (1) 32 million wrapped up in one aging, non-productive player in his last year and (2) we really don't know the long-term outlook for our young starting pitchers. If the Tigers think that Skubal, MIze and Manning are going to be what they expected in '24 and beyond then they can trade some other young pitchers to bolster the roster, but they aren't going to know any of that this year, so this year it's likely to be band-aids on bullet wounds with next year being more aggressive with Miggy's 32 million, Schoop's 7 million and possibly Javy's 25 million all off the books. The next offseason is probably is probably where they make some interesting signings and trades on the field, this season was about fixing the organization off the field and I think they've made some good moves, but we won't really know it for 3 or 4 years. Edited November 25, 2022 by Motor City Sonics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeyAbbott Posted November 25, 2022 Share Posted November 25, 2022 Harris inherited a very poorly constructed team. I think it's 2025 before we know what we have in him. Three full years on the field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motor City Sonics Posted November 25, 2022 Share Posted November 25, 2022 In baseball, you have to commit to a GM longer than any other sport because of how long it takes drafted players to develop. You have to give him at least 4 years unless he just does some incredibly stupid things, but I wouldn't expect it from this guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinzaki Posted November 25, 2022 Share Posted November 25, 2022 I think you have to NHL and MLB GM's awhile. The timeline for developing draft picks is longer in both sports. Yzerman has the Wings in playoff contention in his 4th year...we're probably looking at a similar timeline with Harris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex Posted November 25, 2022 Share Posted November 25, 2022 8 hours ago, Motor City Sonics said: I don't think Harris leaves his hometown team to come here unless he got certain assurances IN WRITING that seemed appealing to him. Cheap & Controllable might be the 2023 way for 2 reasons. (1) 32 million wrapped up in one aging, non-productive player in his last year and (2) we really don't know the long-term outlook for our young starting pitchers. If the Tigers think that Skubal, MIze and Manning are going to be what they expected in '24 and beyond then they can trade some other young pitchers to bolster the roster, but they aren't going to know any of that this year, so this year it's likely to be band-aids on bullet wounds with next year being more aggressive with Miggy's 32 million, Schoop's 7 million and possibly Javy's 25 million all off the books. The next offseason is probably is probably where they make some interesting signings and trades on the field, this season was about fixing the organization off the field and I think they've made some good moves, but we won't really know it for 3 or 4 years. Much agreed with, however Harris himself said rosters and especially Ps are so volatile year to year. You can never 'count' on a certain 3 SPs (see Fullmer, Boyd and Norris, etc., etc.). Gone are the days of teams with 3 SPs giving you 200+ IPs each year. I agree with Dan O'Dowd and other FO types who say you need to be 10 deep in SPs or your season has a chance of derailing awfully fast. IMHO, Harris/staff will try to accumulate as much talent as possible, regardless of position, If he/they feel a player of interest is available 'now' and/or a real potential to acquire (FA, trade, draft, waiver, etc.) he will go after him. Although perhaps over time it may be there - the 'timeline' concept - may not be apply here in the early goings, meaning 'get who you can if the player fits now' mode may apply. There has to be a 'trust' factor and that assurance comes/came between Chris I and SHarris - and Harris would not have come here, IMHO, had he not been given some assurances of such. There already have been quite a few changes throughout the organization. I do think there needs to be 'some' first hand 'eyeball/interaction+' to take place still with the Tigs players, but this day and age most teams already know a lot about players, so analytics, value, etc. is already there. There will be additions 'this' off season, who and to what extent on the payroll remains to be seen as other teams will no doubt be going after many of the same players as well. 🤔 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Useful Idiot Posted November 25, 2022 Share Posted November 25, 2022 9 hours ago, oblong said: He had no reason to leave his job to be a lapdog for a horrible owner. As a come uppance, It's a great opportunity to pad his resume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigermojo Posted November 25, 2022 Share Posted November 25, 2022 Fangraphs projects Cleveland to win the division with an 82-80 record. Now is a great time to add some wins to the roster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Useful Idiot Posted November 25, 2022 Share Posted November 25, 2022 (edited) I believe anyone actually paying attention, learns to recognize certain hard, or unpleasant truths. You learn to recognize that the only reason the Ronny Rodriguezes, Christian Stewarts, and Brandon Dixons of the world are on your team's roster is because the teams have a contractual obligation with the league to put however many players into a stadium, on game night. And those players have a reasonable probability of actually catching a ball hit near them, without too much embarrassment. Over time as one sees those "place holder" type players replaced with guys who might actually surprise you and hit the baseball once in a while,... you start to gain encouragement. I believe in software development the process is known as "stepwise refinement" But then to see those incremental improvements cast to the wind just because the number 5 is evil.....you start to realize the fans are just being played. That's where I feel we are today. Clearly Harris MUST make some changes, there is no question there. But, lets keep a close eye on whether those changes are the best possible improvement he could make, or is he simply extending the timeline by bringing in as-yet-unproven placeholders? Their greatest value being they are unknown qualities. Gee, he claims there is a priority to bring a right handed hitter into our outfield mix, and there is at least one acceptable right hand hitting outfielder available for signing...lets see if our new wonderkind can pull it off? 😕 .500 in 2023, division by 2025, league championship by 2027.....that's what I consider to be success. If he's still farting around 5 years from now pretending that a wildcard slot is within reach, that IMO is failure. Edited November 25, 2022 by Useful Idiot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted November 25, 2022 Author Share Posted November 25, 2022 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Useful Idiot said: As a come uppance, It's a great opportunity to pad his resume. Who would want to hire anyone with “lapdog” on his resume? Edited November 25, 2022 by chasfh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted November 25, 2022 Share Posted November 25, 2022 30 minutes ago, Useful Idiot said: As a come uppance, It's a great opportunity to pad his resume. Kinda like how going 66-96 with the Tigers was supposed to groom AJ for a contender job? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Useful Idiot Posted November 25, 2022 Share Posted November 25, 2022 8 minutes ago, chasfh said: Who would want to hire anyone with “lapdog” on his resume? Well, don't you see? He worked within limitations of a moribund organization. That demonstrates "craft" "Yeah, I've been president once; but didn't have available resources"...that sort of thing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted November 25, 2022 Author Share Posted November 25, 2022 9 hours ago, HeyAbbott said: The Tigers, like any other organization, need to identify, attract, obtain, train, and retain solid personnel. They carry a very poor record at identifying and training personnel as the last 40 years testify to. Because they cannot identify quality players, even when they have spent in the past, they have had woefully horrible rosters. I believe one key problem with how the Tigers would identify talent in the past is that they focused on toolsy guys who were athletes first, rather than guys with well-established baseball skills. You can tell because of how often Al’s press releases would describe players they drafted, traded for, or signed as being “athletes”. They seemed to be laboring under the notion that they could obtain the best athletes and then train them to become great baseball players. I’m not sure I can come up with even a single example of that approach succeeding. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Useful Idiot Posted November 25, 2022 Share Posted November 25, 2022 4 minutes ago, mtutiger said: Kinda like how going 66-96 with the Tigers was supposed to groom AJ for a contender job? AJ had a little image rehabilitation involved in the mix, as I recall. Might want to wait for the other shoe to hit the floor on that one, IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted November 25, 2022 Author Share Posted November 25, 2022 2 minutes ago, Useful Idiot said: Well, don't you see? He worked within limitations of a moribund organization. That demonstrates "craft" "Yeah, I've been president once; but didn't have available resources"...that sort of thing YMMV, but I myself have never hired anyone who complained about their previous jobs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Useful Idiot Posted November 25, 2022 Share Posted November 25, 2022 5 minutes ago, chasfh said: n Al’s press releases would describe players they drafted, traded for, or signed as being “athletes”. They seemed to be laboring under the notion that they could obtain the best athletes and then train them to become great baseball players. I always interpreted those claimed devotions to athleticism as just a veiled excuse to part ways with older and unlean veterans? It was a way to say "we want young and dumb" without having to be blunt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Useful Idiot Posted November 25, 2022 Share Posted November 25, 2022 7 minutes ago, chasfh said: YMMV, but I myself have never hired anyone who complained about their previous jobs. You think anyone would have to actually enumerate to convey that this is a troubled organization? The quote marks I used were rhetoric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Useful Idiot Posted November 25, 2022 Share Posted November 25, 2022 34 minutes ago, chasfh said: Who would want to hire anyone with “lapdog” on his resume? Let's see him go out and sign Aaron Judge to fulfill his "right hand hitting outfielder" priority. That would be an extremely un-lapdoggy, presidential-like move he could make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motor City Sonics Posted November 25, 2022 Share Posted November 25, 2022 If the new hitting coaches can get Schoop, Baez and Meadows back to their averages and then save Tork before he's completely broken, then the team is going to do a lot better right there. They should go after Justin Turner. He's perfect for them. High OBP guy, still decent at 3rd, and even though he's 38, he still gets on base. He won't be looking for a long contract. I know they'd like to find a left-handed hitting infielder, but they just need to get someone competent at third. I don't think Clemens, Kreidler, Perez or Lupcius is the answer there, at least not right now. The free agent list is weak this year and the ones at the top won't be coming here. The rest of them, I think, you'd have to look at guys with OBPs over .320 (maybe higher). That's what he said his priority was, understanding the strike zone. That's why Daz, Candy and the Castros are gone. That 17-4, 2.14 season comeback- of-the-century year for Franklin Perez is going to be awesome, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longgone Posted November 25, 2022 Share Posted November 25, 2022 1 hour ago, Useful Idiot said: I believe anyone actually paying attention, learns to recognize certain hard, or unpleasant truths. You learn to recognize that the only reason the Ronny Rodriguezes, Christian Stewarts, and Brandon Dixons of the world are on your team's roster is because the teams have a contractual obligation with the league to put however many players into a stadium, on game night. And those players have a reasonable probability of actually catching a ball hit near them, without too much embarrassment. Over time as one sees those "place holder" type players replaced with guys who might actually surprise you and hit the baseball once in a while,... you start to gain encouragement. I believe in software development the process is known as "stepwise refinement" But then to see those incremental improvements cast to the wind just because the number 5 is evil.....you start to realize the fans are just being played. That's where I feel we are today. Clearly Harris MUST make some changes, there is no question there. But, lets keep a close eye on whether those changes are the best possible improvement he could make, or is he simply extending the timeline by bringing in as-yet-unproven placeholders? Their greatest value being they are unknown qualities. Gee, he claims there is a priority to bring a right handed hitter into our outfield mix, and there is at least one acceptable right hand hitting outfielder available for signing...lets see if our new wonderkind can pull it off? 😕 .500 in 2023, division by 2025, league championship by 2027.....that's what I consider to be success. If he's still farting around 5 years from now pretending that a wildcard slot is within reach, that IMO is failure. Why are you ranting about a guy who's been on the job for a few weeks? Are you that damaged? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Useful Idiot Posted November 25, 2022 Share Posted November 25, 2022 1 minute ago, Longgone said: Why are you ranting about a guy who's been on the job for a few weeks? Are you that damaged? Deal with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longgone Posted November 25, 2022 Share Posted November 25, 2022 1 minute ago, Useful Idiot said: Deal with it. I don't have to, thank god, and I feel sorry for anyone who does. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted November 25, 2022 Share Posted November 25, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, chasfh said: I believe one key problem with how the Tigers would identify talent in the past is that they focused on toolsy guys who were athletes first, rather than guys with well-established baseball skills. You can tell because of how often Al’s press releases would describe players they drafted, traded for, or signed as being “athletes”. They seemed to be laboring under the notion that they could obtain the best athletes and then train them to become great baseball players. I’m not sure I can come up with even a single example of that approach succeeding. this x 1000. Hitting is a skill so detached from other conventional athletic characteristics that that approach is doomed to failure. You have to identify hitters *as hitters* and then hope their athleticism is at least good enough you don't end up with 9 DHs. But the cruel truth is that as much as I love to see great defense being played, you are still better off in the MLB with 9 DHs than 9 Andreton Simmonses. You. Have. to. Hit. Now TBF, the tigers haven't been wrong in every case recently. But not right anywhere near enough. So e.g. -Remember when we drafted Greene, there was enough skepticism about his fielding that there was even talk about him being destined for 1b. But he could hit. So he has 'surprised' in terms of turning into a pretty decent OF. That's a way better bet than that NIko Goodrum or Willi Castro was ever going to become a hitter. Ironically, under Avila the Tigers do seem to have learned how to identify arms with MLB potential with some success, but I've always held that pitching is far more amenable to analysis via the advanced measurement tools currently available than hitting is. Avila's regime got some handle on the former, but not much on the latter. And of course they were done in as much as anything by not understanding how to keep those arms healthy. If finding hitters is job one, pitching health is job one 'b'. Edited November 25, 2022 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Useful Idiot Posted November 25, 2022 Share Posted November 25, 2022 1 minute ago, Longgone said: I don't have to, thank god, and I feel sorry for anyone who does. Your attempt to guilt peddle me for daring to voice my sincere concerns, (the "damaged" quip) just doesn't solicit feelings of cooperation on my part. I guess I am just strange that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longgone Posted November 25, 2022 Share Posted November 25, 2022 1 minute ago, Useful Idiot said: Your attempt to guilt peddle me for daring to voice my sincere concerns, (the "damaged" quip) just doesn't solicit feelings of cooperation on my part. I guess I am just strange that way. What, pray tell, have you discovered in Scott Harris background or experience gives you "SINCERE CONCERNS"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Useful Idiot Posted November 25, 2022 Share Posted November 25, 2022 7 minutes ago, Longgone said: What, pray tell, have you discovered in Scott Harris background or experience gives you "SINCERE CONCERNS"? It's going to play out here, in short order. If he replaces Candy, Reyes, and the Castros with clear and obvious upgrades, then my concerns are unfounded. But, if he brings in 4A candidates whose main qualifications are that they are yet unproven, then I turn up the criticism another notch. Easy Peasy! 😋 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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