2022-23 Detroit Tigers Offseason Thread

[Longgone]

7 minutes ago, Useful Idiot said:

It's going to play out here, in short order.  If he replaces Candy, Reyes, and the Castros with clear and obvious upgrades, then  my concerns are unfounded. But, if he brings in 4A candidates whose main qualifications are that they are yet unproven, then I turn up the criticism another notch.  Easy Peasy! 😋

How about if he replaces some of them with unproven talent who turn out to be valuable players. Buying old veteran players isn't the only way to build a team, he needs to use all avenues.

Edited November 25, 2022 by Longgone

[chasfh]

3 minutes ago, Longgone said:

How about if he replaces some of them with unproven talent who turn out to be valuable players. Buying old veteran players isn't the only way to build a team, he needs to use all avenues.

You heard the man: Aaron Judge or bust. 😏

[Useful Idiot]

It's watching what little progress we've made take a backslide that has me ornerated.   And while I think that call is being made from above Harris' head, HE IS THE FRONT MAN. So he gets the prize.

I still feel like Castellanos should be a part of this team, but was discarded because of his contract status (that "5 is an evil number" thing)

And, I see the recent priority with jettisoning players because they are approaching service time thresholds, as just a continuation of that mentality.  SO it's not like the new broom is sweeping clean. 

 
Here's the new boss, same as the old boss" etc etc

Let him insert accomplished talent in place of these recent discards, and I'll reconsider. But the onus of proof is on the organization. I feel no obligation to be patient.

[Useful Idiot]

5 minutes ago, Longgone said:

How about if he replaces some of them with unproven talent who turn out to be valuable players. Buying old veteran players isn't the only way to build a team, he needs to use all avenues.

Oh, you mean like we've been doing the past 5 years? Buying  more time  to deliver (extending the time line) by throwing Avila under the bus and replacing him with a fresh face, doesn't really cultivate patience in my part

Complete sincerity here. We've been fed that promise for a while now.  Perhaps you are familiar with the old expression "fool me once....." etc?

 

[Useful Idiot]

7 minutes ago, chasfh said:

You heard the man: Aaron Judge or bust. 😏

Such a move would quench completely my "lapdog" concerns. 😇

[HeyAbbott]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

I believe one key problem with how the Tigers would identify talent in the past is that they focused on toolsy guys who were athletes first, rather than guys with well-established baseball skills. You can tell because of how often Al’s press releases would describe players they drafted, traded for, or signed as being “athletes”. They seemed to be laboring under the notion that they could obtain the best athletes and then train them to become great baseball players. I’m not sure I can come up with even a single example of that approach succeeding.

I agree with this. Also look at their pitching preferences. There is a tendency to obtain  pitchers that have excellent velocity with the idea that they can be taught command and control. As I view it from memory, there are 2 franchises in the AL central, Minnesota and Cleveland, that place a higher value on command and control. Both of them seem to do a better job of having good pitching staffs.

Finally, I don't think Scott Harris is anybody's fool and has no desire to play one. I don't think you think this way. I am just tossing it in to clarify my view of Scott Harris.

[Longgone]

8 minutes ago, Useful Idiot said:

It's watching what little progress we've made take a backslide that has me ornerated.   And while I think that call is being made from above Harris' head, HE IS THE FRONT MAN. So he gets the prize.

I still feel like Castellanos should be a part of this team, but was discarded because of his contract status (that "5 is an evil number" thing)

And, I see the recent priority with jettisoning players because they are approaching service time thresholds, as just a continuation of that mentality.  SO it's not like the new broom is sweeping clean. 

 
Here's the new boss, same as the old boss" etc etc

Let him insert accomplished talent in place of these recent discards, and I'll reconsider. But the onus of proof is on the organization. I feel no obligation to be patient.

Owners set financial parameters, they don't dictate what types of players are acquired. Good GM's work within those constraints. He's been on the job a few weeks! At least see what type of team he puts on the field before you get all pissy.

[Longgone]

6 minutes ago, Useful Idiot said:

Oh, you mean like we've been doing the past 5 years? Buying  more time  to deliver (extending the time line) by throwing Avila under the bus and replacing him with a fresh face, doesn't really cultivate patience in my part

Complete sincerity here. We've been fed that promise for a while now.  Perhaps you are familiar with the old expression "fool me once....." etc?

 

This is gibberish.

[Useful Idiot]

I really hope you enjoy the sky boxes at Comerica that Mr Harris is no doubt awarding you for defending his honor this way.

 I just  have different objectives and priorities.

[Jim Cowan]

There is a lot of fantasizing going on here about Chris Ilitch being some sort of villain.  He doesn't care enough to be a villain.  Villains have passion, they have long term objectives.  Chris Ilitch is the opposite of that, he might be the most irrelevant owner in professional sports.  So if Harris doesn't put a winning team on the field don't blame Ilitch, he will have had nothing to do with it.

[mtutiger]

3 minutes ago, Useful Idiot said:

I really hope you enjoy the sky boxes at Comerica that Mr Harris is no doubt awarding you for defending his honor this way.

Alternatively, maybe some of us would prefer to actually see how Harris does over the first couple of years before automatically declaring his tenure a failure.

It doesn't require sky box bribes to think that way.

Edited November 25, 2022 by mtutiger

[Useful Idiot]

4 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Alternatively, maybe some of us would prefer to actually see how Harris does before automatically declaring his tenure a failure.

I've laid out benchmarks that I am willing to recognize as "success". They are attainable. SO  in my estimation I've put forth a balanced frame work.

But again, if he brings in "never has beens" to replace the recently departed, well..."strike one"

Edited November 25, 2022 by Useful Idiot

[mtutiger]

1 minute ago, Jim Cowan said:

There is a lot of fantasizing going on here about Chris Ilitch being some sort of villain.  He doesn't care enough to be a villain.  Villains have passion, they have long term objectives.  Chris Ilitch is the opposite of that, he might be the most irrelevant owner in professional sports.  So if Harris doesn't put a winning team on the field don't blame Ilitch, he will have had nothing to do with it.

To add to this, it's worth remembering that before Harris took this job, he pulled himself put of consideration one year earlier with the Mets, an org who, despite whatever flaws it may have, has an owner who will spend exorbitant amounts of money on free agents.

Put another way, he wouldn't go to work for Steve Cohen but would for Chris Ilitch. Which tells me that he values being given the space to build an organization as he wants to build it. Which Chris, for his part, will do because he seems about as hands-off an owner as they come in MLB.

[Useful Idiot]

Hey, if it make you guys feel like "superior fans" being all rosey and such...more power to you.

But, don't expect to sway me with accusations that I (evidently)  must be damaged for failure to share YOUR perspectives.

I've never been a sunshinner, I am a realist....

[mtutiger]

11 minutes ago, Useful Idiot said:

Hey, if it make you guys feel like "superior fans" being all rosey and such...more power to you.

A couple of things: superiority doesn't factor into anything, I just don't agree with your opinions on this. Nothing personal.

Second, I wouldn't even consider my opinion "rosey"... Avila left this organization in poor shape and Harris will have a lot of work ahead of him fixing it. Individual signings alone (such as Aaron Judge) aren't going to fix it.

The standard you alluded to earlier was Dombrowski: it took four years for him to fix this and turn it around. I dont know if it will take that long or not this time, but realistically, it wouldn't matter who the owner or PBO is, it would take  at least a couple of years to fix this mess. Expectations, imo, should be set accordingly.

Edited November 25, 2022 by mtutiger

[Useful Idiot]

2 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Expectations, imo, should be set accordingly.

Do you believe I am being unreasonable expecting .500 this coming season?  Because .500 was what I was expecting for 2022, and my intention to not amend is basically framed in a "I'm not conceding expectations over organizational malaise" point of reference.

Perhaps I give these guys credit for being smarter than they actually are, but I see the firing of Avila as just a ploy by Chris  to buy time

[Useful Idiot]

LOL, they could move Schoop over to third, Baez at 2nd, Sign Correa, Judge, and Verlander...and I'd be saying "Harris, you the stud!"

I still don't think Meadows is gonna fly, so they might have to go hunting there. 

[Jim Cowan]

25 minutes ago, Useful Idiot said:

...as just a ploy by Chris  to buy time

Buy time from whom?  You?  Why would he care what you think, or any of us?   Buy time to accomplish what exactly?

[Useful Idiot]

52 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

Buy time from whom?  You?  Why would he care what you think, or any of us?   Buy time to accomplish what exactly?

Not just me as an individual. But from the collective fan base that's long  been promised today's sacrifices will yield a brighter tomorrow.   Recall at the beginning of last season even Al Avila made the pronouncement that "now is the time", which if nothing else reveals that the organization is cognizant of fan expectations, or even a sense of urgency.

Without tangible results, the organization suffers a credibility crisis.....unless you can subscribe fan sympathy with a stall tactic.

Which answers your question

Edited November 25, 2022 by Useful Idiot

[mtutiger]

12 minutes ago, Useful Idiot said:

Not just me as an individual. But from the collective fan base that's long  been promised today's sacrifices will yield a brighter tomorrow.   Recall at the beginning of last season even Al Avila made the pronouncement that "now is the time", which if nothing else reveals that the organization is cognizant of fan expectations, or even a sense of urgency.

Without tangible results, the organization suffers a credibility crisis.....unless you can subscribe fan sympathy with a stall tactic.

So firing Al Avila and replacing him with a different PBO, something that was literally a required condition for fixing this franchise, is a "stall tactic"?

That doesn't make any sense... a "stall tactic" would have been to make a bunch of excuses for why it was a bad year while retaining Avila.

[Useful Idiot]

7 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

 

That doesn't make any sense... a "stall tactic" would have been to make a bunch of excuses for why it was a bad year while retaining Avila.

"Stall" in the sense of "We need time to regroup in consequence to these changes.

If you really want to pretend that you don't understand just because you disagree with me, there is really nothing I can do that is likely to change your mind. But, I've read enough of your other posts to know that you are smart enough to understand my point. Even if you disagree. So let's dispense with the charade?

Edited November 25, 2022 by Useful Idiot

[Useful Idiot]

You see? it's really Chris' credibility being protected...a matter of ego.  "Don't blame our failure to produce on me, I'm surrounded by incompetence",.... GIVE ME MORE TIME TO FIX  etc?

[mtutiger]

24 minutes ago, Useful Idiot said:

"Stall" in the sense of "We need time to regroup in consequence to these changes.

Wouldn't it be easier / make more sense to fire Avila with the intent to hire someone with the idea they can build a winner?

[Useful Idiot]

I really don't believe that I've set the bar excessively high here.  Simply bring in some players who are obvious upgrades to fill the holes YOU'VE created in our roster (and not some equivalent placeholder player  who's only benefit is more head room on their service time)

 

And

play .500 ball

Do that, and i'm fine.

But, if he  instead replaces Castro, Reyes, and Candy with warm bodies whos main virtue is less service time, and we play .400 ball...then I've seen the light.

[gehringer_2]

so putting Chris Ilitch aside, about whom none of us really know jack squat, now that the cuts have been made what are we left with:?

Starting Pitching: 

ERod, Manning, Turnbull, Wentz, Faedo, Brieske, Alexander, possible Skubal post ASB

Relief Pitching:

Soto, Cisnero, Jimenez, Roni Garcia, Lange, Alexander, Foley, Hill

After one or two are inevetably lost to the DL that should make 13 or so. With Skubal and Mize both likely to be back in '24 any kind of long term starting pitching signing seems a lower priority than other holes but at least one 'prove it in ST" tryout signing also seems inevitable....

Position Players:

C : Haase, Roger  - (Seems like a signing is in order here)

1B: Torkelson - (either has to hit or be replaced - can K. Carpenter learn 1st?)

2b: Schoop - (do we trust him to have a comeback yr?)

SS: Baez

3B: Kreidler/Short/Clemens/Ibanez/TBA (Help us Obi-Wan Kanobi, you're our only hope!)

RF: Austin Meadows/TBA

CF: Greene

LF: Baddoo/Haase/Meadows

DH: Cabrera, Carpenter, Haase

So where does it hurt the most? I know most of the focus has been 2B/3B and OF, but I think the power vaccuum at 1B/DH is just as bad. As of now there this no fallback if Torkelson doesn't come around, and enough has been said about Cabrera. It would be a huge help if Carpenter is more than one month flash in the pan.

Edited November 25, 2022 by gehringer_2