2022-23 Detroit Tigers Offseason Thread

[Useful Idiot]

15 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Wouldn't it be easier / make more sense to fire Avila with the intent to hire someone with the idea they can build a winner?

Make more sense, to whom? You/me, or a team owner spending the lions share of his money on urban redevelopment?   A "stall" makes sense if he's got a "higher use" in mind for the money available to him.

I'm not insisting this necessarily is the reason, I'm just showing you how varied and contending priorities might be a factor

Edited November 25, 2022 by Useful Idiot

[Useful Idiot]

8 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

so putting Chris Ilitch aside, about whom none of us really know jack squat, now that the cuts have been made what are we left with:?

Starting Pitching: 

ERod, Manning, Turnbull, Wentz, Faedo, Brieske, Alexander, possible Skubal post ASB

Relief Pitching:

Soto, Cisnero, Jimenez, Roni Garcia, Lange, Alexander, Foley, Hill

After one or two are inevetably lost to the DL that should make 13 or so. With Skubal and Mize both likely to be back in '24 any kind of long term starting pitching signing seems a lower priority than other holes but at least one 'prove it in ST" tryout signing also seems inevitable....

Position Players:

C : Haase, Roger  - (Seems like a signing is in order here)

1B: Torkelson - (either has to hit or be replaced - can K. Carpenter learn 1st?)

2b: Schoop - (do we trust him to have a comeback yr?)

SS: Baez

3B: Kreidler/Short/Clemens/Ibanez/TBA (Help us Obi-Wan Kanobi, you're our only hope!)

RF: Austin Meadows/TBA

CF: Greene

LF: Baddoo/Haase/Meadows

DH: Cabrera, Carpenter, Haase

So where does it hurt the most? I know most of the focus has been 2B/3B and OF, but I think the power vaccuum at 1B/DH is just as bad. As of now there this no fallback if Torkelson doesn't come around, and enough has been said about Cabrera. It would be a huge help if Carpenter is more than one month flash in the pan.

I am concerned by an article I read suggesting there is a questionmark at catcher.   Perhaps Rogers is not recovering as well as we all hope?  I'd like to think that Hasse has earned a return, but the article I read didn't set that in stone, ether.

[Longgone]

28 minutes ago, Useful Idiot said:

You see? it's really Chris' credibility being protected...a matter of ego.  "Don't blame our failure to produce on me, I'm surrounded by incompetence",.... GIVE ME MORE TIME TO FIX  etc?

So Chris' ego is such that it will only allow him to acquire mediocre ballplayers. That statement is inane to the point of embarrassment. First, if Illich has imposed some financial constraints, that is an owners prerogative, and there is nothing wrong with that, every club does it. If you are assuming some prohibition on high salaried free agents, Avila was able to sign them under both Chris and Mike, so that also isnt true, they were just the wrong free agents.

Second, the thought that signing top free agents is the only way to build a club, and "prove yourself", that's equally absurd.

[gehringer_2]

3 hours ago, Longgone said:

How about if he replaces some of them with unproven talent who turn out to be valuable players. Buying old veteran players isn't the only way to build a team, he needs to use all avenues.

You look at what Yzerman has done finding guys like Kubalik and you hope that kind of model would be viable in baseball but I have my doubts. In hockey a pretty decent player can get sort of buried with poor line-mates or a coach/system that's bad fit for his style of play. For a ballplayer, it's such an individual performance that it's pretty hard for good players to go unrecognized regardless of their team or teammates. And the likelihood of finding another unrecognized metric like OBP was to the money ball revolution shrinks every year.

[Useful Idiot]

1 minute ago, Longgone said:

So Chris' ego is such that it will only allow him to acquire mediocre ballplayers. That statement is inane to the point of embarrassment. 

Second, the thought that signing top free agents is the only way to build a club, and "prove yourself", that's equally absurd.

Thanks for your support.

[gehringer_2]

3 minutes ago, Useful Idiot said:

I am concerned by an article I read suggesting there is a questionmark at catcher.   Perhaps Rogers is not recovering as well as we all hope?  I'd like to think that Hasse has earned a return, but the article I read didn't set that in stone, ether.

Catcher is asolutely weak, but that's true for almost everyone other than KC (and even Sal is getting old) so that would be the place you might just have to live with being bad because there just are no options.

[Useful Idiot]

5 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Catcher is asolutely weak, but that's true for almost everyone other than KC (and even Sal is getting old) so that would be the place you might just have to live with being bad because there just are no options.

Personally I felt that Rogers was exceeding expectations until he was injured. I remember seeing him leg out a triple that even the game announcers were awed by.

Perhaps giving Reyes a shot at catcher might be a way to get a left handed bat into the infield?   

Edited November 25, 2022 by Useful Idiot

[Tiger337]

11 hours ago, Useful Idiot said:

It's going to play out here, in short order.  If he replaces Candy, Reyes, and the Castros with clear and obvious upgrades, then  my concerns are unfounded. But, if he brings in 4A candidates whose main qualifications are that they are yet unproven, then I turn up the criticism another notch.  Easy Peasy! 😋

This about Reyes.  Isn't it?  

[1984Echoes]

12 hours ago, Useful Idiot said:

Do you believe I am being unreasonable expecting .500 this coming season?  Because ...

You should have no expectations whatsoever for 2023.

Except for the organization to heal itself. 

Both on and off the field.

The record doesn't matter in 2023...

[1984Echoes]

10 hours ago, Useful Idiot said:

You see? it's really Chris' credibility being protected...a matter of ego.  "Don't blame our failure to produce on me, I'm surrounded by incompetence",.... GIVE ME MORE TIME TO FIX  etc?

I think you have a vivid imagination.

You are seeing things in your mind that aren't really there...

Sort of like a mirage...

[casimir]

Oh boy....

[Tenacious D]

This forum is in desperate need of a Tigers transaction—any type will do.

[mtutiger]

11 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

This about Reyes.  Isn't it?  

1,280 plate appearances wasnt enough I guess. He needed a few more lol

[casimir]

1 hour ago, Tenacious D said:

This forum is in desperate need of a Tigers transaction—any type will do.

I was thinking walk away from here for a bit and get some fresh air.

[JackPine]

21 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

so putting Chris Ilitch aside, about whom none of us really know jack squat, now that the cuts have been made what are we left with:?

Starting Pitching: 

ERod, Manning, Turnbull, Wentz, Faedo, Brieske, Alexander, possible Skubal post ASB

Relief Pitching:

Soto, Cisnero, Jimenez, Roni Garcia, Lange, Alexander, Foley, Hill

After one or two are inevetably lost to the DL that should make 13 or so. With Skubal and Mize both likely to be back in '24 any kind of long term starting pitching signing seems a lower priority than other holes but at least one 'prove it in ST" tryout signing also seems inevitable....

Position Players:

C : Haase, Roger  - (Seems like a signing is in order here)

1B: Torkelson - (either has to hit or be replaced - can K. Carpenter learn 1st?)

2b: Schoop - (do we trust him to have a comeback yr?)

SS: Baez

3B: Kreidler/Short/Clemens/Ibanez/TBA (Help us Obi-Wan Kanobi, you're our only hope!)

RF: Austin Meadows/TBA

CF: Greene

LF: Baddoo/Haase/Meadows

DH: Cabrera, Carpenter, Haase

So where does it hurt the most? I know most of the focus has been 2B/3B and OF, but I think the power vaccuum at 1B/DH is just as bad. As of now there this no fallback if Torkelson doesn't come around, and enough has been said about Cabrera. It would be a huge help if Carpenter is more than one month flash in the pan.

They need to sign a SP that has had mlb success and can be expected to fill a spot for the whole year. Plus a few AAAA spring training invites. 

Relying on they're current crop would result in a lot more drew Hutchison. 

[Edman85]

Y'all do realize that Harris's job is mostly hiring and managing front office personnel and processes, right?

[gehringer_2]

36 minutes ago, JackPine said:

They need to sign a SP that has had mlb success and can be expected to fill a spot for the whole year. Plus a few AAAA spring training invites. 

Relying on they're current crop would result in a lot more drew Hutchison. 

the problem is you probably don't get anyone that has had success (at least recently) on a one year deal, which is why I'm guess they may have to settle for something more along the lines of a reclamation project. Of course if Harris isn't very high in Mize long term, then sure, I suppose we could see a bigger signing.

[gehringer_2]

35 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

Y'all do realize that Harris's job is mostly hiring and managing front office personnel and processes, right?

And making final decisions.

[gehringer_2]

2 hours ago, Tenacious D said:

This forum is in desperate need of a Tigers transaction—any type will do.

Remember how Avila loved to make deals the very first day he could? 

Remember how most of them turned out?

[Useful Idiot]

15 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

This about Reyes.  Isn't it?  

Not in the context you likely suppose.  I recognize the imperative for the new leader to make changes. And so long as the bodies he brings in to fill the vacancies he's created are clear and obvious upgrades, then I'm behind him.

But if he brings in replacements whose only distinguishing characteristics are  "unproven quality" as well as less service time...then yeah, I'm gonna feel we are being hosed.

In short,  If the outcome is better players,.. then YAY!!  but if cheap and controllable is the goal, then skarew him. I can't be any more truthful than that

Trouble is, the organization's goals have been "cheap and controllable" for so long, yeah I am a bit prejudiced, I suspect they are still in that channel. 

[Useful Idiot]

13 hours ago, 1984Echoes said:

You should have no expectations whatsoever for 2023.

Except for the organization to heal itself. 

Both on and off the field.

The record doesn't matter in 2023...

LOL, King 84 has spoken!!  SORRY 84, I'm not conceding expectations just because the house of Chrissy is in disarray.   Organizations that win on the cheap happen, but are flukes.   Top talent earns top dollar for a reason. 

So long as they have you  "on board" with this dime store mentality that we can emulate the 2015 Royals, they own you.  Free your mind...etc.

[Useful Idiot]

15 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

This about Reyes.  Isn't it?  

You've given me a great idea though. Remember those old "I coulda had a V-8!" commercials?

If Harris' strategy ends up being as I suspect, and he brings in a bunch of never-has-beens with low service time to fill the openings he's created, I think I'll use the "He coulda had a Victor Reyes" as a taunt to celebrate  when one of his freshmen falls short. 

[Useful Idiot]

2 hours ago, Edman85 said:

Y'all do realize that Harris's job is mostly hiring and managing front office personnel and processes, right?

Well, lets see...he's used "We need to add right handed bats in the outfield" as his rationale for letting Reyes go, and has at the same time insisted we need to add left handed bats to the infield as his excuse for getting rid of Candy.

I'd like to think if  we have a worthy leader he'll be at least smart enough to  organize his agenda sufficiently into a cohesive whole before sputtering half baked imperatives.   He's not on any fast track towards impressing me, thus far.

If one is going to lie, they at least need to lie well.  I realize that is a tad harsh, but still fitting.

Edited November 26, 2022 by Useful Idiot

[chasfh]

2 hours ago, Edman85 said:

Y'all do realize that Harris's job is mostly hiring and managing front office personnel and processes, right?

He'll probably get there eventually but I would guess that for the first year, Harris is going to be point man on a lot of decisions, including relatively minor player moves, so that he explicitly establishes both the change in culture and the benchmarks by which subsequent hires will be expected to hew to.

[chasfh]

2 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

the problem is you probably don't get anyone that has had success (at least recently) on a one year deal, which is why I'm guess they may have to settle for something more along the lines of a reclamation project. Of course if Harris isn't very high in Mize long term, then sure, I suppose we could see a bigger signing.

Mize is a really interesting case. He was the consensus 1-1 pick a few years ago, so Avila can hardly be blamed to selecting the guy literally everyone else would have selected. But there were also biomechanic red flags he was throwing up, both in body motion and pitch selection, that posters on the old board flagged right away. A lot of us knew surgery was only a matter of time, but now with another guy in charge, one who is also installing his own team of executives and coaches, a fresh set of eyes will be cast on Mize to determine whether he really is an ace, or more like a serviceable 2/3 on a bad team or a 4/5 on a good one.

Edited November 26, 2022 by chasfh