2022-23 Detroit Tigers Offseason Thread

[Useful Idiot]

12 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Your cage mates are going to vote for me?  

You know what I'm talking about. 

[1984Echoes]

3 hours ago, CMRivdogs said:

Now you're just trolling, 

Not very useful here

I want to throw in my 2 cents here...

My impression from Useful Idiot so far (over the past couple years) has been nothing but "Tigers Suck", "Tigers Suck", "Tigers Suck". Trolling.

But I don't think this is that. At first I was thinking that...

But this is different. 

IMO, UI is taking a stance here. A hard stance that no one agrees with... I don't agree with it... but this isn't trolling.

He is demanding immediate player improvements. I don't see that happening... but I respect the position/ not trolling.

Maybe I'll even convince him to give it a year... just one.

If not... go for it UI... but I will guess that 2023 will be a disappointment for you...

2024 will be better...

Just my 2 cents...

 

[Edman85]

2 hours ago, chasfh said:

I'm not sure what you're trying to lead me to?

Not really anywhere. I just don't think people are understanding the front office processes. Harris isn't some czar that took over. Most of the same people are empowered, using the same information.

[Tiger337]

11 minutes ago, Useful Idiot said:

You know what I'm talking about. 

Does anyone?

[Useful Idiot]

Don't really care

[Useful Idiot]

1 hour ago, 1984Echoes said:

 

Maybe I'll even convince him to give it a year... just one.

 

Regrettably, I don't  really have much choice in the matter do I? 😱

Obviously there is a range of opinion even here amongst the  members, as to what Harris' role even will be. One insisting that Harris would never have accepted the position without autonomous power, while another asserts he is just a cog in the machine.   I believe if I were a "troll", I'd be focusing on trying to get those factions at each other's throats. 

Greatly condensed, I believe that Avila did exactly the job he was being paid to do, assemble a team cheaply, and con the fans into believing  the organization wanted to win.   His firing and replacement was just stage craft. Just a more elaborate con being fed to the fans, by an owner having priorities other than baseball.

We are being shined-on in other words, and Harris is just a tool in that strategy.

Because if winning WERE TRULY a priority, the formula isn't a secret, just look at the teams  that have won the most games the past five years, and emulate that. Load up on talent, dominate the opposition, and smile.

But we are not doing that, we are playing games trying to build a low $$ commitment roster, and pretending doing so is "smart" baseball.

I just don't feel the obligation to turn a blind eye to the lies

Edited November 27, 2022 by Useful Idiot

[gehringer_2]

56 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

Not really anywhere. I just don't think people are understanding the front office processes. Harris isn't some czar that took over. Most of the same people are empowered, using the same information.

I think the non-tenders did send a signal that he wants to raise the bar that is a lot louder than just the expected rhetoric when he took the job. Of course, now he has to orchestrate some acquisitions to back that up. And a lot that is directly on his plate as opposed his staff. He's the guy other GMs will be calling and vice versa) to explore possible deals and it will be his creativity and command of every other team's situation that will serve to generate any deals that move the Tigers forward.

[Useful Idiot]

Let's take a slightly skewed look at it for a second.

Many were expecting the roster Avila assembled for 2022 to reach .500

He  failed, But if Harris is the talent some here seem to believe him to be, it shouldn't be that hard for him to make a few tweaks and increase our winning percentage a few bumps to .500

BUT, he'll have to acquire some talent to get there. He's made a few holes in the roster that should allow him to do just that. IF HE GOES FOR TALENT.

But, if he fills the blanks with zeros...just like the old song goes "Here's the new boss, he's the same as the old boss"

And the one thing I can promise you, is that no amount of personal insults branding me  as  "ridiculous" is going to change my perspective  that business priorities are trumping any will to win in this organization

 

Edited November 27, 2022 by Useful Idiot

[gehringer_2]

15 minutes ago, Useful Idiot said:

And the one thing I can promise you, is that no amount of personal insults branding me  as  "ridiculous" is going to change my perspective  that business priorities are trumping any will to win in this organization

You can talk about business priorities but I'm not sure how you apply that concept to the way the Tigers actually operate. Chris is not vetting each move by his GM based on some set of his own priorities. The Tigers have been pretty transparent that the way they actually operate is that Ilitch and his GM come up with a budget for the season and from that point on, it's the GM's show. Now I think we both doubt Aaron Judge is in that budget this year, but beyond that, I don't think it's particularly meaningful to think in micro terms of how Ilitch business priorities drive specific Tiger management moves. Whatever priorities there are all get subsumed into a budget number. Once that is established, they no longer have any specific applicability to team management. If you believe that the mere fact of having a budget immediately precludes being a competitive organization, that's fine, but I don't find it determinative.

Edited November 27, 2022 by gehringer_2

[casimir]

20 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

I think the non-tenders did send a signal that he wants to raise the bar that is a lot louder than just the expected rhetoric when he took the job. Of course, now he has to orchestrate some acquisitions to back that up. And a lot that is directly on his plate as opposed his staff. He's the guy other GMs will be calling and vice versa) to explore possible deals and it will be his creativity and command of every other team's situation that will serve to generate any deals that move the Tigers forward.

Sure.  As examples, dumping CastroH, CastroW, and Reyes despite the declared wishlist of a LHH IF and RHH OF.  Technically the trio mentioned could fill those holes.  But it could be argued pretty easily that those spots are still holes even if they were retained.

Its good to expect better than we’ve seen the last seven seasons.  I don’t know that getting things going into the right direction mean immediate improvement in standings at the major league level next season.  But at the same time, it wouldn’t be difficult to improve upon last season.

[Useful Idiot]

6 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

You can talk about business priorities but I'm not sure how you apply that concept to the way the Tigers actually operate.

Wouldn't you consider cutting the arb eligible players loose  to be economics driven?  To me it screams "cheap"

If they can bring in a 4A guys with "no whiskers" to replace Reyes, Candy, and the Castros ....cheaply, then I believe that is exactly their motive

[gehringer_2]

12 minutes ago, Useful Idiot said:

Wouldn't you consider cutting the arb eligible players loose  to be economics driven?  To me it screams "cheap"

If they can bring in a 4A guys with "no whiskers" to replace Reyes, Candy, and the Castros ....cheaply, then I believe that is exactly their motive

Like I said, I think the reality is that Harris is going to spend the budget he has been given. He cut the guys he cut because he thinks he can make more effcient use of the saved resource somewhere else. The thesis you are positing is that Harris is going to throw back unused dollars to Ilitch for a pat on the back. Even Al Avila didn't do that, he always spent his full allotment by the time the season started and I'm guessing Harris will try as hard as he can to do likewise.

Edited November 27, 2022 by gehringer_2

[Useful Idiot]

2 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Like I said, I think the reality is that Harris is going to spend the budget he has been given. He cut the guys he cut because he thinks he can make more effcient use of the saved resource somewhere else. 

I'm confident we'll have the best team $125 million will buy. 

[1984Echoes]

15 minutes ago, Useful Idiot said:

Wouldn't you consider cutting the arb eligible players loose  to be economics driven?  To me it screams "cheap"

If they can bring in a 4A guys with "no whiskers" to replace Reyes, Candy, and the Castros ....cheaply, then I believe that is exactly their motive

And this is just personal projection...

They were underperformers.

There is no other reason whatsoever to assign to their release. They were subpar. (or at least candy was in 2022... in 2020-21 he was good...). But it doesn't matter if replacements are dirt cheap. Sift through cheap role players is just as significant a part of team-building as spending significant money on filling holes on the team (meaning FA's...).

[gehringer_2]

9 minutes ago, Useful Idiot said:

I'm confident we'll have the best team $125 million will buy. 

It will be more like $150-175M when they are done, but yeah I hope we do too.....

 

Edited November 27, 2022 by gehringer_2

[Tiger337]

For the record,  I am excited to see what Harris and the rest of the front office will do this winter.  I don't expect them to be good in 2023, but I want to see how they operate as it will give us clues as to how they might approach the future.  They could very well be headed for another several years of futility, but there is no reason not to give the new management a chance for a couple of years.  

[Jim Cowan]

19 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

For the record,  I am excited to see what Harris and the rest of the front office will do this winter.  I don't expect them to be good in 2023, but I want to see how they operate as it will give us clues as to how they might approach the future.  They could very well be headed for another several years of futility, but there is no reason not to give the new management a chance for a couple of years.  

I am too and no he isn't sitting up in some executive office letting a bunch of people that he doesn't know very well just go about their business.  He's a new CEO in an organization that has been a catastrophic failure and he only has about 3 months to put his stamp on the organization, or else it will become resistant to any changes.  That's just a known fact in any business in any industry.  It's his team now, but it isn't just going to happen, he has to proactively drive change.  Baseball is just like any other industry that way.  Those guys that are gone, the Castros and Reyes and Candelario - they are gone because Harris got rid of them, not because some old retainer in player evaluation suddenly came to his senses.  Same with Chadd and Rand - they are gone because Harris got rid of them.  For the next 3 months, more like 6, he is going to be involved in every aspect of baseball operations, 2 levels down from him on the org chart, and with specific regard to player personnel he is running it with both hands on.   

[Useful Idiot]

16 hours ago, Edman85 said:

"We need to add right-handed OF" is a lot more political than saying "Victor Reyes is sub-replacement level and we don't want to use a 40-man spot on him."

 

I see,...so then you are saying that Harris has a gift for double speak.

What do you think is his true meaning behind "we must master the strike zone"?  Is that his way of saying "Good bye Javy"?.....Soto too for that matter since he said "from both sides of the plate".  Perhaps I've been too harsh and there are things to like about this guy afterall?

[Useful Idiot]

Two years from now when he starts non-tendering Tork, and Greene, and Skubal... at least no one can say it was without precedent. 

Tell me, these guys who are missing entire seasons due to TJ, do they still build service time while laid-off? This could be huge and go a long way towards explaining Jason Beck's claim that we have a vacuum  at catcher.  (gee, I hope I'm not tipping Harris' hand)

[Longgone]

5 minutes ago, Useful Idiot said:

Two years from now when he starts non-tendering Tork, and Greene, and Skubal... at least no one can say it was without precedent. 

Tell me, these guys who are missing entire seasons due to TJ, do they still build service time while laid-off? This could be huge and go a long way towards explaining Jason Beck's claim that we have a vacuum  at catcher.  (gee, I hope I'm not tipping Harris' hand)

Go somewhere really quiet, and try really hard, and see if you can come up with one rational, lucid thought.

[mtutiger]

1 hour ago, Useful Idiot said:

Two years from now when he starts non-tendering Tork, and Greene, and Skubal... at least no one can say it was without precedent. 

Tell me, these guys who are missing entire seasons due to TJ, do they still build service time while laid-off? This could be huge and go a long way towards explaining Jason Beck's claim that we have a vacuum  at catcher.  (gee, I hope I'm not tipping Harris' hand)

Reyes, the Castros, even Candy earned their non-tenders through performance.

If they weren't mediocre (or in the case of Candy, unreliable), hard not to imagine them being tendered a contract.

[HeyAbbott]

1 hour ago, mtutiger said:

Reyes, the Castros, even Candy earned their non-tenders through performance.

If they weren't mediocre (or in the case of Candy, unreliable), hard not to imagine them being tendered a contract.

I am a broken record on this but, every player let go by Harris had less production that what would be required to produce an average MLB team. I mourn them not. On the position side, there are only 3 players as of this date that I would label as average MLB players. I think that there are some that are currently on the 40 man roster (i.e., the additions) that will be average MLB players at some point, such as P Meadows, Lupicus, and Perez.

As things stand today, we need a starting 3B, one starting OF, a starting 1B, one C, a reliable DH, and one, possibly 2 SP's, and Miggy needs to be off this team. That's a minimum of six to seven guys. Maybe the new coaching can fix at least one or 2 hitters. TORK!, if we are honest, needs 150 to 200 ABS in Toledo before he is ready.

The pitching candidates might come internally from Turnbull etc., but the rest won't. I expect the roster to turn and shimmy more than a flea infested Bourbon street stripper.

The organization was a bombed out mess when Harris arrived. I am going to give Harris some time before I draw conclusions. 33 games into the '24 season seems the right time to do that.

Edited November 27, 2022 by HeyAbbott

[Tenacious D]

I think I am stupider reading the last 30-40 posts.  And I don’t have any IQ points to spare.

I know this is a forum to speculate, but I find it interesting that there is so much conviction and confidence while commenting on a situation that no one really knows anything about. We don’t even have an offseason to evaluate how the new front office is going to approach building a roster.

[mtutiger]

54 minutes ago, HeyAbbott said:

I am a broken record on this but, every player let go by Harris had less production that what would be required to produce an average MLB team. I mourn them not.

Exactly. The front office needs to do what it can to replace these guys, but it would be a mistake to read so far into them being let go as to suggest that it means anything about paying guys like Skubal or Greene or Tork down the road... it doesn't.

With the exception of maybe Candelario, they are all MLB Cannon Fodder.

[gehringer_2]

4 hours ago, Useful Idiot said:

Two years from now when he starts non-tendering Tork, and Greene, and Skubal... at least no one can say it was without precedent. 

Tell me, these guys who are missing entire seasons due to TJ, do they still build service time while laid-off? This could be huge and go a long way towards explaining Jason Beck's claim that we have a vacuum  at catcher.  (gee, I hope I'm not tipping Harris' hand)

If those guys all crash into sub replacement players like the others he has let go,  I would hope he would non-tender them instead of hanging on to failed picks or trades hoping for miracles.