2022-23 Detroit Tigers Offseason Thread

[Tenacious D]

  On 12/8/2022 at 3:12 AM, Longgone said:

His fastball is a 50, slider and command at least above average, change is plus, curve is serviceable, repeats his delivery and maintains his stuff. High release point allows his stuff to play up. Not sure what y'all are looking for, but this was a good get. 

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My comment wasn’t meant as a commentary on his acquisition, but a desperate plea for a cheap laugh.

[1984Echoes]

  On 12/8/2022 at 3:12 AM, Longgone said:

His fastball is a 50, slider and command at least above average, change is plus, curve is serviceable, repeats his delivery and maintains his stuff. High release point allows his stuff to play up. Not sure what y'all are looking for, but this was a good get. 

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Yes, because he was a Rule V guy so anything he contributes in MLB (I mean, at a positive WAR that is...) is a plus.

Regardless of whether he ends up as a mid or back-end rotation guy or even lower on the spectrum (IE: long reliever/ spot starter...).

[kdog]

  On 12/8/2022 at 3:15 AM, StatikIEV said:

My annoyance isn't so much with Justyn-Henry Malloy or his prospect status...its the fact we are clearly now in rebuild year 7.

Yippee we are getting some teams #11, #25th, 38th best prospects and we are bottom feeding the rule 5.

Harris says on day 1 we need to fill holes at catcher, 3rd, OF.   Now a couple months later, its 'lets go with haase/rogers at C, an unproven AA prospect at 3rd, and a still nothing I'in the OF'...while at the same time it's 'maybe Cabrera will take the field again' and we are too cheap to hold onto 40% of our bullpen (that was our only decent thing last year finishing 8th in the league).

I mean...yay Tigers baseball 2023?  

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I want you to sit down for this. They are going to suck again in 2023. But hopefully the GM is building an organization that can deliver more talent down the road.

[microline133]

  On 12/8/2022 at 3:13 AM, 1984Echoes said:

OK great...

But "end of the year" is a very small sample size and no guarantee of linear development. And "uptick" doesn't state "put-away slider" or "dominant FB".

If he doesn't have a put-away pitch at the MLB level... he'll struggle to get out of innings and allow base-runners even when he limits walks. He'll be limited to the back end of the rotation. 

I'll believe mid-rotation when I see it...

Otherwise... you're reading too much into "uptick"... I mean, maybe it's there. But again, I'll believe it when I see it.

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This might be the first time I've ever seen you pump the breaks on a Tigers prospect. I'm not sure how to react.

I look forward to his first appearance of the year when he strikes out four in two scoreless innings (in spring training, no less), and you change your tune. 😁

[Jim Cowan]

I like it.  He gets on base, shows some power, RH bat.  Joe had his moments but I'm OK with moving him out.

[Longgone]

  On 12/8/2022 at 3:15 AM, 1984Echoes said:

Yes, because he was a Rule V guy so anything he contributes in MLB (I mean, at a positive WAR that is...) is a plus.

Regardless of whether he ends up as a mid or back-end rotation guy or even lower on the spectrum (IE: long reliever/ spot starter...).

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We were talking ceiling, but those grades are the grades of a mid rotation guy. Texas would be happy to get him back.

[mtutiger]

I know the leverage is different during the offseason versus the trade deadline, but the split-screen between the Joe deal and the Fulmer deal is awful. Even with Fulmer just being a pure rental.

Would Al have been capable of pulling this kind of deal off for Joe?

[mtutiger]

  On 12/8/2022 at 3:23 AM, Longgone said:

We were talking ceiling, but those grades are the grades of a mid rotation guy. Texas would be happy to get him back.

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Correct... they have a deep farm system and he was the first one who had to be left off the boat. Chris Young has already commented that he'll be watching with interest...

Would have preferred they went position player, but they did relatively well with Englert

Edited December 8, 2022 by mtutiger

[KL2]

  On 12/8/2022 at 2:45 AM, StatikIEV said:

I understand the line of thought, but we would be putting a guy who has a total of 3 games at AA on the Major League roster all year...so we can stash him in AAA and he can be like 15th on the depth chart?  What us the risk vs reward matrix here?

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The risk is 50k

The reward is sometimes you find a Reyes who gives you a bit. Care to explain why it's so bad?

[1984Echoes]

  On 12/8/2022 at 3:18 AM, microline133 said:

This might be the first time I've ever seen you pump the breaks on a Tigers prospect. I'm not sure how to react.

I look forward to his first appearance of the year when he strikes out four in two scoreless innings (in spring training, no less), and you change your tune. 😁

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Hah!!!

We'll see on that...!!!

Right now I'm pumping Olson, Flores & Madden...

[StatikIEV]

  On 12/8/2022 at 3:12 AM, Tiger337 said:

You can never ever ever have too much pitching!

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The cliche implies 'good' pitching...in this case, the talent is sub par to his peers...but he is to be tolerated on the major league roster all year in order to build depth and/or have a lottery ticket.

If a move ever screamed "lost year upcoming" this is it. 

Make the case Ty Madden shouldn't be on the active roster as a starter over Mason Englert if he is such a future MLBer.  Same age, Madden is a round 1 that has 5x better results to date...and more experience above A ball (albeit marginally).

Don't like Madden as an example?  We have 10 other SP names that have yet to get flushed out we already have...when will we be getting them their full season shot? 2024...year 8 of the rebuild?  2025?  Can you guarantee they will all have decent sample size starting opportunities between Mize, Skubal, Manning, Turnbull, Jobe, Boyd, Manning after next year?

I've been a defender of the club for the first years of this rebuild...but the moves so far scream "We are waiting out Cabrera's contract while all our 'tank picks' hopefully get healthy and play to their slot"

Edited December 8, 2022 by StatikIEV

[KL2]

  On 12/8/2022 at 3:15 AM, StatikIEV said:

My annoyance isn't so much with Justyn-Henry Malloy or his prospect status...its the fact we are clearly now in rebuild year 7.

Yippee we are getting some teams #11, #25th, 38th best prospects and we are bottom feeding the rule 5.

Harris says on day 1 we need to fill holes at catcher, 3rd, OF.   Now a couple months later, its 'lets go with haase/rogers at C, an unproven AA prospect at 3rd, and a still nothing I'in the OF'...while at the same time it's 'maybe Cabrera will take the field again' and we are too cheap to hold onto 40% of our bullpen (that was our only decent thing last year finishing 8th in the league).

I mean...yay Tigers baseball 2023?  

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I'm sorry the off-season ended today?

[KL2]

  On 12/8/2022 at 3:31 AM, StatikIEV said:

The cliche implies 'good' pitching...in this case, the talent is sub par to his peers...but he is to be tolerated on the major league roster all year in order to build depth and/or have a lottery ticket.

If a move ever screamed "lost year upcoming" this is it. 

Make the case Ty Madden shouldn't be on the active roster as a starter over Mason Englert if he is such a future MLBer.  Same age, Madden is a round 1 that has 5x better results to date...and more experience above A ball (albeit marginally).

Don't like Madden as an example?  We have 10 other SP names that have yet to get flushed out we already have...when will we be getting them their full season shot? 2024...year 8 of the rebuild?  2025?  Can you guarantee they will all have decent sample size starting opportunities between Mize, Skubal, Manning, Turnbull, Jobe, Boyd, Manning after next year?

I've been a defender of the club for the first years of this rebuild...but the moves so far scream "We are waiting out Cabrera's contract while all our 'tank picks' hopefully get healthy and play to their slot"

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You're new to baseball aren't you?

[Tiger337]

Englert looks like another "control the strike zone" acquisition.  I don't have any great expectations, but he's a Rule 5 guy, so that's par for the course.  

[StatikIEV]

  On 12/8/2022 at 3:33 AM, KL2 said:

You're new to baseball aren't you?

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Care to articulate over belittling?

[Edman85]

  On 12/8/2022 at 3:33 AM, KL2 said:

You're new to baseball aren't you?

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Englert has to stick as a Rule 5

[Tiger337]

  On 12/8/2022 at 3:31 AM, StatikIEV said:

The cliche implies 'good' pitching...in this case, the talent is sub par to his peers...but he is to be tolerated on the major league roster all year in order to build depth and/or have a lottery ticket.

If a move ever screamed "lost year upcoming" this is it. 

Make the case Ty Madden shouldn't be on the active roster as a starter over Mason Englert if he is such a future MLBer.  Same age, Madden is a round 1 that has 5x better results to date...and more experience above A ball (albeit marginally).

Don't like Madden as an example?  We have 10 other SP names that have yet to get flushed out we already have...when will we be getting them their full season shot? 2024...year 8 of the rebuild?  2025?  Can you guarantee they will all have decent sample size starting opportunities between Mize, Skubal, Manning, Turnbull, Jobe, Boyd, Manning after next year?

I've been a defender of the club for the first years of this rebuild...but the moves so far scream "We are waiting out Cabrera's contract while all our 'tank picks' hopefully get healthy and play to their slot"

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Given the mess the organization is in and all the injuries to their best young pitchers, I figured this year was a lost season anyway. Unfortunately, I think 2024 is the first season where we can expect to see the MLB team molding into shape.   

[Longgone]

  On 12/8/2022 at 3:31 AM, StatikIEV said:

The cliche implies 'good' pitching...in this case, the talent is sub par to his peers...but he is to be tolerated on the major league roster all year in order to build depth and/or have a lottery ticket.

If a move ever screamed "lost year upcoming" this is it. 

Make the case Ty Madden shouldn't be on the active roster as a starter over Mason Englert if he is such a future MLBer.  Same age, Madden is a round 1 that has 5x better results to date...and more experience above A ball (albeit marginally).

Don't like Madden as an example?  We have 10 other SP names that have yet to get flushed out we already have...when will we be getting them their full season shot? 2024...year 8 of the rebuild?  2025?  Can you guarantee they will all have decent sample size starting opportunities between Mize, Skubal, Manning, Turnbull, Jobe, Boyd, Manning after next year?

I've been a defender of the club for the first years of this rebuild...but the moves so far scream "We are waiting out Cabrera's contract while all our 'tank picks' hopefully get healthy and play to their slot"

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on what planet did Ty Madden have five times better results?

[mtutiger]

  On 12/8/2022 at 3:31 AM, StatikIEV said:

The cliche implies 'good' pitching...in this case, the talent is sub par to his peers...but he is to be tolerated on the major league roster all year in order to build depth and/or have a lottery ticket.

If a move ever screamed "lost year upcoming" this is it. 

Make the case Ty Madden shouldn't be on the active roster as a starter over Mason Englert if he is such a future MLBer.  Same age, Madden is a round 1 that has 5x better results to date...and more experience above A ball (albeit marginally).

Don't like Madden as an example?  We have 10 other SP names that have yet to get flushed out we already have...when will we be getting them their full season shot? 2024...year 8 of the rebuild?  2025?  Can you guarantee they will all have decent sample size starting opportunities between Mize, Skubal, Manning, Turnbull, Jobe, Boyd, Manning after next year?

I've been a defender of the club for the first years of this rebuild...but the moves so far scream "We are waiting out Cabrera's contract while all our 'tank picks' hopefully get healthy and play to their slot"

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This largely seems like a complaint about Rule 5 in general... 

The system is what it is... and there is history of finding players through it that can be successful major leaguers. I dont see the issue being raised here other than just a complaint about where the Tigers are at more generally.

Edited December 8, 2022 by mtutiger

[StatikIEV]

  On 12/8/2022 at 3:37 AM, Edman85 said:

Englert has to stick as a Rule 5

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Yes.   So for him to get a shot..it has to be at the MLB level over our guys that are more ready...and a guy with 3 AA starts, and another team's 29th best prospect.  On our depth chart for SP he would slot around 17th?

Edited December 8, 2022 by StatikIEV

[Longgone]

  On 12/8/2022 at 3:31 AM, StatikIEV said:

The cliche implies 'good' pitching...in this case, the talent is sub par to his peers...but he is to be tolerated on the major league roster all year in order to build depth and/or have a lottery ticket.

If a move ever screamed "lost year upcoming" this is it. 

Make the case Ty Madden shouldn't be on the active roster as a starter over Mason Englert if he is such a future MLBer.  Same age, Madden is a round 1 that has 5x better results to date...and more experience above A ball (albeit marginally).

Don't like Madden as an example?  We have 10 other SP names that have yet to get flushed out we already have...when will we be getting them their full season shot? 2024...year 8 of the rebuild?  2025?  Can you guarantee they will all have decent sample size starting opportunities between Mize, Skubal, Manning, Turnbull, Jobe, Boyd, Manning after next year?

I've been a defender of the club for the first years of this rebuild...but the moves so far scream "We are waiting out Cabrera's contract while all our 'tank picks' hopefully get healthy and play to their slot"

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Also, when have you ever seen the Tigers, or any other mlb team, have too many of their starters pan out? You should only hope that happens! 

[Longgone]

  On 12/8/2022 at 3:45 AM, StatikIEV said:

Yes.   So for him to get a shot..it has to be at the MLB level over our guys that are kire ready...and a guy with 3 AA starts, and another team's 29th best prospect.  On our depth chart for SP he would slot around 17th?

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He's probably going to be the last man in the pen, so he's taking Wily Peralta's job. He's blocking nobody. When anyone earns it, or is ready, they'll get an opportunity.

[StatikIEV]

  On 12/8/2022 at 3:40 AM, Longgone said:

on what planet did Ty Madden have five times better results?

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So you would trade Ty Madden for 5 Mason Englerts?  15% better peripherals is the difference between an all-star and lineup filler.

[microline133]

  On 12/8/2022 at 3:30 AM, 1984Echoes said:

Hah!!!

We'll see on that...!!!

Right now I'm pumping Olson, Flores & Madden...

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Good to see you're pumped up about three future relievers.

[StatikIEV]

  On 12/8/2022 at 3:52 AM, Longgone said:

He's probably going to be the last man in the pen, so he's taking Wily Peralta's job. He's blocking nobody. When anyone earns it, or is ready, they'll get an opportunity.

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I do get and appreciate what you are saying here.  I belive he is actually blocking people, but that really is a debatable point between us.

However, let's not get confused here. What he is really taking the place of (along with all the other 'great' talents we have rule 5 drafted and 'traded' other MLB players for) ...is the club spending any money.