2022-23 Detroit Tigers Offseason Thread

[theroundsquare]

ernie never lost a rose bowl

[Longgone]

4 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Bo was considered one of the all-time greats when he was at Michigan.

Unfortunately, his job with the tigers wasn't to coach football.

[Jim Cowan]

6 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Bo was considered one of the all-time greats when he was at Michigan.

He's considered one of the all-time screwups when he was with the Tigers.

[chasfh]

Just now, Longgone said:

Unfortunately, his job with the tigers wasn't to coach football.

True, although he carried his god-like status into the job and it was still intact when he went to war against Ernie. It was the Ernie Incident that cost Bo everything. Bo practically died in disgrace as a result. It was one of the grossest miscalculations of one's own stature versus that of another that I can recall.

[Jim Cowan]

Bogarts is 30?  Somebody gave 11 years to a 30-year-old shortstop?  

[mtutiger]

13 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Bo was considered one of the all-time greats when he was at Michigan.

This is true, but one significant difference between the two is that (I'm guessing) 30-35% of Michiganders who are sports fans root for the other big state school, and Bo wasn't a "God" to all of those folks. Ernie, OTOH, was beloved by a broader cross section of people.

One can surmise that was never a fight Bo would win, even if he was a God in Ann Arbor.

Edited December 8, 2022 by mtutiger

[chasfh]

Just now, mtutiger said:

This is true, but one significant difference between the two is that (I'm guessing) 30-35% of Michiganders who are sports fans root for the other big state school. Ernie, OTOH, was beloved by a broader cross section of people.

One can surmise that was never a fight Bo would win, even if he was a God in Ann Arbor.

Bo was a god in Detroit, I assure you.

[mtutiger]

1 minute ago, chasfh said:

Bo was a god in Detroit, I assure you.

The Tigers fan base and the reach of the team on radio goes far beyond Detroit. There's a whole state out there that largely supports them.

And not all of them are Wolverine types.

Edited December 8, 2022 by mtutiger

[Shinzaki]

Bo was a God in Detroit/Ann Arbor...but...going to war with Ernie AND Tiger Stadium (you can't expect us to be chained to a rusty girder) pissed off a lot of the baseball cognoscenti in Detroit

[chasfh]

4 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

Bogarts is 30?  Somebody gave 11 years to a 30-year-old shortstop?  

The market has changed. Teams seem more willing to to sign longer deals for lower AAVs, probably as a way to mitigate the luxury tax. Plus, there's a good chance some of these GMs won't even be with their team by the chickens comes home to roost.

[chasfh]

Just now, Shinzaki said:

Bo was a God in Detroit/Ann Arbor...but...going to war with Ernie AND Tiger Stadium (you can't expect us to be chained to a rusty girder) pissed off a lot of the baseball cognoscenti in Detroit

Yes, although not just the baseball cognoscenti. Regular people who weren't even baseball fans, even Michigan fans, lost their respect for Bo. Which is the say, they finally saw him revealed for what he basically was: Woody Hayes North.

[chasfh]

4 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

The Tigers fan base and the reach of the team on radio goes far beyond Detroit. There's a whole state out there that largely supports them.

And not all of them are Wolverine types.

Is that your memory of it at the time?

[Shinzaki]

2 minutes ago, chasfh said:

The market has changed. Teams seem more willing to to sign longer deals for lower AAVs, probably as a way to mitigate the luxury tax. Plus, there's a good chance some of these GMs won't even be with their team by the chickens comes home to roost.

In that sense...they are much like Congressmen

[mtutiger]

13 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Is that your memory of it at the time?

I don't have any memories of it but have discussed the situation with family and have read enough over the years to understand the dynamics involved.

Simply put, Bo was a "God", not claiming he wasn't by any means. But Michigan State Spartan fans exist, and given the heated rivalry that existed between the two, a lot of those folks (many of them being Tiger fans) don't view Bo in the same light. I should know because I came from an MSU family.... many view Bo that way in the state, but we never did and many other Spartan loyalists (at least the ones I know) are the same way.

So one can surmise that a God-like figure who holds 60-65% of the state captive (Bo) knifing a God-like figure who holds 90%+ captive (Ernie), that was never gonna end well.

Edited December 8, 2022 by mtutiger

[gehringer_2]

Bo may have been 'beloved', but I think there was already scepticism about Bo going to the Tigers because he already hadn't seemed much of a fit as a manager in his short term as UM AD. (lots of people were left scratching their heads over his treatment of Frieder- he reaction was frankly ridiculous- it's not like it's some big sin for a coach to take a new job - Bo seemed to have forgotten he did it himself a few times!). Fans can love a guy and still believe he is in the wrong place with the wrong ideas.

Edited December 8, 2022 by gehringer_2

[oblong]

Bo was not the god from Michigan when he ran the Tigers.  Don't forget his association with Monoghan in general tarred his image.  Remember SAVE TIGER STADIUM and the Tiger Stadium Fan Club?  I assure you his time as Michigan's coach played no role in his perception to Tiger fans.  In many ways it's a different fan base.  My family were huge Tiger fans but couldn't give two shits about Michigan.  Not anti michigan either. Just indifferent.  He was just another football coach to us.  The Ernie stuff was just icing on the cake.  

 

But to Bo's credit, it was WJR's management that pushed Ernie out and Bo fought for one more year.  When the heat came Bo said it was his job to take it as the boss even if some of it was misaligned.  Granted this is Bo's side of things through Mitch Albom but Joe Falls also checked it out.  In his book Falls recounts that he was home sick when the news broke so he wasn't on the scene immediately. But he didn't think things looked right.  Here's a guy who signed a one year contract, with a huge raise, then has a press conference, in their building, announcing he's being fired.  He started digging and had arranged a meeting with Bo, then he gets there and he sees Mitch walking away from the house.  That was another story but the fact he kind of cooborates what Mitch wrote makes me think it's the truth.

Whether Beckman was pulling strings... who knows.  But Ernie did say when he came back in 1993 or whenever it was, that Rick and Bob were cold toward him. He offered lunch dates and mentoring but that bob in particular wasn't interested.  He got relegated to pre/post game shows.  Rick is a great broadcaster with Seattle so I guess it works out. 

Just a shitty decision and unforced error.  But I do think that fuss elevated Ernie above a level he might not have attained.  All of his catch phrases and such were not quite as prominent pre-firing as you would think. Then they became a trademark.

Think of George Blaha.... people like him but is he beloved? No.  Now imagine the Pistons were going to fire him in 2006?  Then they bring him back and viola, he's beloved.

Blaha rules.  Every bit the legend.  We're blessed in this town.

[chasfh]

2 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

I don't have any memories of it but have discussed the situation with family and have read enough over the years to understand the dynamics involved.

Simply put, Bo was a "God", not claiming he wasn't by any means. But Michigan State Spartan fans exist, and given the heated rivalry that existed between the two, a lot of those folks (many of them being Tiger fans) don't view Bo in the same light. I should know because I came from an MSU family.... many view Bo that way in the state, but we never did and many other Spartan loyalists (at least the ones I known) are the same way.

So one can surmise that a God-like figure who holds 60-65% of the state captive (Bo) knifing a God-like figure who holds 90%+ captive (Ernie), that was never gonna end well.

I do have a strong memory of it, having been an advertising media executive with friends at WJR at the time. I also lived through Bo's entire tenure as coach of Michigan. I was even a Michigan fan myself as a child because every kid growing up in Detroit in the 70s was a Michigan fan, and a Bo Schembechler fan. I'm just sharing my recollection of contemporaneous conversation about the events at that time, and the conclusion JR people came to is that Ernie won because Ernie was universally beloved, and Bo—to your point about divided loyalties, but probably more because of his general demeanor—was not.

Also, FWIW—I understand it's a huge apostasy to even broach this here—the JR people I knew at that time were not fans of Ernie in general. They thought he reneged on his promise to retire after his last contract, forced the station to give him one more year, and resented the soft power he wielded in that one press conference to curry public sympathy and make the station and the team look like the bad guys. They were personally glad to see him go. Believe it or not.

[mtutiger]

10 minutes ago, oblong said:

Bo was not the god from Michigan when he ran the Tigers.  Don't forget his association with Monoghan in general tarred his image.  Remember SAVE TIGER STADIUM and the Tiger Stadium Fan Club?  I assure you his time as Michigan's coach played no role in his perception to Tiger fans.  In many ways it's a different fan base.  The Ernie stuff was just icing on the cake

Kinda what I'm trying to drive at as well. The Tiger fan base (at the time and currently) includes a lot of people who don't care one way or another about college sports, or who may root for different college programs in the state. The Wolverine fan base, as large as it is in comparison with other programs in Michigan, is still more limited within the state versus the Tigers, who are drawing from a much larger pool of people.

Just think that's important context to consider in a discussion about Bo v. Ernie.

Edited December 8, 2022 by mtutiger

[Tenacious D]

1 hour ago, Tiger337 said:

That is a very real problem.  I still like the numbers, but I'd like him better if his name was Justin Malloy.

I’m working on this.

[Tenacious D]

15 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I do have a strong memory of it, having been an advertising media executive with friends at WJR at the time. I also lived through Bo's entire tenure as coach of Michigan. I was even a Michigan fan myself as a child because every kid growing up in Detroit in the 70s was a Michigan fan, and a Bo Schembechler fan. I'm just sharing my recollection of contemporaneous conversation about the events at that time, and the conclusion JR people came to is that Ernie won because Ernie was universally beloved, and Bo—to your point about divided loyalties, but probably more because of his general demeanor—was not.

Also, FWIW—I understand it's a huge apostasy to even broach this here—the JR people I knew at that time were not fans of Ernie in general. They thought he reneged on his promise to retire after his last contract, forced the station to give him one more year, and resented the soft power he wielded in that one press conference to curry public sympathy and make the station and the team look like the bad guys. They were personally glad to see him go. Believe it or not.

I heard the bigger issue was that he didn’t always wash his hands after using the restroom.

[Jim Cowan]

Here's my lasting memory of Tom Monaghan - he didn't like Kirk Gibson, because Gibson didn't shave every day.  That's it.  That's all I remember about him.

[Shinzaki]

Trim those sideburns, Mattingly!!

[CMRivdogs]

19 minutes ago, oblong said:

 

Whether Beckman was pulling strings... who knows.  But Ernie did say when he came back in 1993 or whenever it was, that Rick and Bob were cold toward him. He offered lunch dates and mentoring but that bob in particular wasn't interested.  He got relegated to pre/post game shows.  Rick is a great broadcaster with Seattle so I guess it works out. 

 

Just as aside concerning Bob Rathbun. Anyone replacing Ernie, especially under those circumstances were bound to fail.  Bob did some play by play for the Tidewater Tides in Norfolk and also some basketball (ODU?)and football while we were there. He worked at the same station as my wife. I worked MaryBeth (Bob's wife) briefly doing traffic in Norfolk. They were both very ambitious in their careers. 

Detroit can be a tough town to acclimate to if you are an "outsider". One of MaryBeth's parents also became ill and died during their time here. From what I read she was not happy in Detroit.

Bob has been doing Atlanta Hawks games for the last 25 plus years. His resume also shows him doing some Braves games for about 10 years. He's had a very good career. Detroit was not a good fit for either broadcaster.

[oblong]

2 minutes ago, CMRivdogs said:

Just as aside concerning Bob Rathbun. Anyone replacing Ernie, especially under those circumstances were bound to fail.  Bob did some play by play for the Tidewater Tides in Norfolk and also some basketball (ODU?)and football while we were there. He worked at the same station as my wife. I worked MaryBeth (Bob's wife) briefly doing traffic in Norfolk. They were both very ambitious in their careers. 

Detroit can be a tough town to acclimate to if you are an "outsider". One of MaryBeth's parents also became ill and died during their time here. From what I read she was not happy in Detroit.

Bob has been doing Atlanta Hawks games for the last 25 plus years. His resume also shows him doing some Braves games for about 10 years. He's had a very good career. Detroit was not a good fit for either broadcaster.

I delivered a pizza to him once.  I also remember hearing him do some NCAA tourny games.

 

[Tiger337]

20 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

Here's my lasting memory of Tom Monaghan - he didn't like Kirk Gibson, because Gibson didn't shave every day.  That's it.  That's all I remember about him.

My memory of him is of a woman, upon learning I was a Tigers fan, complaining about him being misogynist.  My response at the time was that I didn't know about that stuff. I just knew he was a bad baseball owner!