2022-23 Detroit Tigers Offseason Thread

[gehringer_2]

53 minutes ago, oblong said:

I remember very shortly before they were fired, like maybe even the day before, they both hosted the nightly sports show on WJR.  There was a vacation or something so they had guest hosts that week.  I listened to it while delivering pizzas. They were both having fun with it and did a fine job.  Then either the next day or few days after, they were fired.  

WJR made a big stink about how Beckman was a former usher or whatever as a kid and it was a dream come true, blah blah blah.  Lary Sorensen was his broadcast partner. 

They were not given a chance here.

 

I was never impressed by Beckman or his skills. I found the way he tried to ingratiate himself into UM football tradition that he had been no part of pretty cringy. You hang around it happens by itself, you can't appropriate for yourself. Marked him as grasping climber type - which dovetails with him gunning for Ernie.

Edited December 9, 2022 by gehringer_2

[CMRivdogs]

15 minutes ago, chasfh said:

That happened in Chicago when Chip Caray was run out of town for basically not being his grandpa.

And he ended up in Atlanta too

[Tiger337]

 

 

[Shinzaki]

Rick Jizzs would be a hell of a pornstar name

[chasfh]

40 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

 

 

I still think he ends up in Asia at some point.

[Tigermojo]

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/the-braves-and-tigers-swap-production-for-potential/

Ben Clemens thinks the Tigers made a good deal.

[gehringer_2]

34 minutes ago, Tigermojo said:

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/the-braves-and-tigers-swap-production-for-potential/

Ben Clemens thinks the Tigers made a good deal.

I think what Altlanta is banking on or at least hoping for is that given that Joe was 27 last season, which is about the time that guys who are wild should settle down if they are ever going to, maybe the corner he turned in '22 is going to stick. Of course if it does they still have to sign him and if he has another good year that could be costly. Honestly, I think this a trade that could go either way, but that's fine - we have more arms than we have guys like Malloy so it's one of those risks probably worth taking.

I'd really love to know if Soto was in the conversation in this deal and if Atlanta preferred Joe.

Edited December 9, 2022 by gehringer_2

[oblong]

Worth pointing out that even if Joe does well that's no bearing to me on Harris or his staff.  The goal isn't to "win" trades as a comparison but to make your team better, however you want to measure that.

 

[gehringer_2]

39 minutes ago, oblong said:

Worth pointing out that even if Joe does well that's no bearing to me on Harris or his staff.  The goal isn't to "win" trades as a comparison but to make your team better, however you want to measure that.

 

Sure. I guess the way I would put it is that you can certainly 'lose' any individual trade in terms of the outside view - say absolute WAR generated by the two players in some number of following years, but still have won the trade for yourself if the the player you got filled a need and the player you gave up didn't. But OTOH, I think it's also true that globally, you can't continue to give up overall roster strength on too many trades before you find inevitably that you are failing to make your team better overall. Obviously considerations like this take a long time to play out completely but that's what I would take as the generalities.

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

I'd really love to know if Soto was in the conversation in this deal and if Atlanta preferred Joe.

I am assuming that Soto has more value since he has three years left before free agency and is a "proven closer".  That might require trade partners to have more faith in "proven closer" than I do though.  

[oblong]

20 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Sure. I guess the way I would put it is that you can certainly 'lose' any individual trade in terms of the outside view - say absolute WAR generated by the two players in some number of following years, but still have won the trade for yourself if the the player you got filled a need and the player you gave up didn't. But OTOH, I think it's also true that globally, you can't continue to give up overall roster strength on too many trades before you find inevitably that you are failing to make your team better overall. Obviously considerations like this take a long time to play out completely but that's what I would take as the generalities.

I think of the Smoltz/Alexander trade.   Did the Tigers, or even Atlanta, think or have any thought that he would be a HOFer? No way.  You can't predict that.  But I still think that's a trade you make if you are the Tigers. 

[gehringer_2]

8 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I am assuming that Soto has more value since he has three years left before free agency and is a "proven closer".  That might require trade partners to have more faith in "proven closer" than I do though.  

True, you can't ignore years of control in the value proposistion, but purely on a pitching bases Joe was probably a better pitcher overall last season than Soto. Now maybe we can say a lot of Soto's blow-ups were in non-save situations that Hinch was brave/foolish/stubborn enough to have put him in, but just by the eye test, when a guy has lost his breaking ball and is down to basically one pitch, his results, even if good, are on borrowed time.

[gehringer_2]

6 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

True, you can't ignore years of control in the value proposistion, but purely on a pitching bases Joe was probably a better pitcher overall last season than Soto. Now maybe we can say a lot of Soto's blow-ups were in non-save situations that Hinch was brave/foolish/stubborn enough to have put him in, but just by the eye test, when a guy has lost his breaking ball and is down to basically one pitch, his results, even if good, are on borrowed time.

and as always, the disclaimer that the complete rendering should be: "down to one pitch and not named Mariano Rivera"

Edited December 9, 2022 by gehringer_2

[SoCalTiger]

I think all these big contracts given out to shortstops Turner and Bogarts with Correa and Swanson to follow combined with the poor free agent class next off season assured Baez will opt out if he has even just a decent season. 

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, oblong said:

I think of the Smoltz/Alexander trade.   Did the Tigers, or even Atlanta, think or have any thought that he would be a HOFer? No way.  You can't predict that.  But I still think that's a trade you make if you are the Tigers. 

I have always maintained that there is nothing Smoltz could have done for the Tigers that would have matched the memories he provided in the 1987 title run.  Over the next couple of decades they would have lost even if they had him.  I'm also not at all certain he would have developed with the Tigers like he did with the Braves.  

[RatkoVarda]

17 minutes ago, SoCalTiger said:

I think all these big contracts given out to shortstops Turner and Bogarts with Correa and Swanson to follow combined with the poor free agent class next off season assured Baez will opt out if he has even just a decent season. 

agree. i have seen some people posting that they hope both Baez and ERod opt out; if healthy, they both should easily match their current deals, so no risk in opting out. another thing Harris needs to deal with

[Tenacious D]

1 minute ago, RatkoVarda said:

agree. i have seen some people posting that they hope both Baez and ERod opt out; if healthy, they both should easily match their current deals, so no risk in opting out. another thing Harris needs to deal with

Baez has to return closer to his career averages if he hopes to get the stink of 2022 off him.

This would be the best outcome for everyone, especially the Tigers.  I’m not counting on it, though.

[gehringer_2]

5 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I have always maintained that there is nothing Smoltz could have done for the Tigers that would have matched the memories he provided in the 1987 title run.  Over the next couple of decades they would have lost even if they had him.  I'm also not at all certain he would have developed with the Tigers like he did with the Braves.  

Alternate history is always up for grabs because who really knows? I guess the inverse view would be that maybe the anchor of a star pitcher leads to different management decisions, though with Monaghan that's probably assuming too much, but then again, a star pitcher could have produced a different dynamic around the cost/sale of the franchise - maybe we never get Ilitch ownership?!? 

[Tenacious D]

It’s also the reason to trade ERod while you can.  He’ll only make $14M this season, which should make him very attractive in trade with any of the teams who lose out on Carlos Rodon.

[Clinkeroo]

35 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I have always maintained that there is nothing Smoltz could have done for the Tigers that would have matched the memories he provided in the 1987 title run.  Over the next couple of decades they would have lost even if they had him.  I'm also not at all certain he would have developed with the Tigers like he did with the Braves.  

This.  No guarantees Smoltz would develop the same way he did in Atlanta. Those last two months of ‘87, especially the last weekend where we caught the stinking’ Jays, are my best ballpark memories outside of 1984.

[1984Echoes]

2 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Sure. I guess the way I would put it is that you can certainly 'lose' any individual trade in terms of the outside view - say absolute WAR generated by the two players in some number of following years, but still have won the trade for yourself if the the player you got filled a need and the player you gave up didn't. But OTOH...

Also OTOH, if you are trading away guys that you are not keeping around for long, for whatever the reason, and therefore lose 2 WAR in 2023;

but gain 15 WAR from end-of-2023 through 2028 from the guys you get back... if you are continually adding WAR to the organization... then the Organization is getting better (in a rebuilding scenario). And overall career WAR (winning or losing) is less important then what WAR you are trying to add into the organization.

And as oblong pointed out, if you're shooting for the playoffs an Org may very well be willing to lose WAR in a deal because they're chasing a Championship. Even if you don't really know at the time that you'll be on the losing end of that WAR comparison.

So.. objective also matters here...

[RandyMarsh]

If ERod looked how he did in 2021 I think he would be an attractive option to teams but he just didn't look that good at all last year, atleast from a stuff and peripheral standpoint so Im not sure how attractive he would be to teams at this point. 

For the Tigers sake let's just hope it was a blip on the radar that could be attributed to what happened with him off the field last year cause if not we could be into Zimmermann part deux with him for the next several years. 

[1984Echoes]

3 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

If ERod looked how he did in 2021 I think he would be an attractive option to teams but he just didn't look that good at all last year, atleast from a stuff and peripheral standpoint so Im not sure how attractive he would be to teams at this point...

Yeah.. I think we're getting mid-way through the 2023 season at least, before teams really get interested in E-Rod.

[chasfh]

2 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

I am assuming that Soto has more value since he has three years left before free agency and is a "proven closer".  That might require trade partners to have more faith in "proven closer" than I do though.  

Maybe we can make something happen with Dave in Philly and send them proven closer Gregory Soto and cash in exchange for Simon Muzziotti and a pitching lottery ticket.

[chasfh]

41 minutes ago, Tenacious D said:

It’s also the reason to trade ERod while you can.  He’ll only make $14M this season, which should make him very attractive in trade with any of the teams who lose out on Carlos Rodon.

Cody seemed to think along the same lines on his podcast this week, but even if Rodriguez waived any part of his no-trade to leave town, I don’t know how any team is going to take a chance on a guy who bugged out on his team and went incommunicado for six weeks in the middle of the season.