2022-23 Detroit Tigers Offseason Thread

[gehringer_2]

1 minute ago, casimir said:

IF the Tigers had the plan to start Torkelson in AAA, I could see this.  Hosmer is minimum salary, might be able to handle most of Baez' throws, and hit better last season than all Tigers not named Haase and Carpenter.

Yeah - Hosmer is not a bad baseball player, he's just not the player SD paid to get. At 32 ie might have a year or two left to bridge a gap.

But the Tigers have left themselves in a box by not maintaining Tork's flexibility to at least fill in at 3rd and Cabrera stuck at DH. If you had some flexibility to swing Tork to third maybe once a week against a heavy LHH team, and DH was open, you could carry an insurance policy like Hosmer, but right now, you are in a situation where if Torkelson starts to hit, you have no place to give a Hosmer ABs at all.

[casimir]

2 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said:

Oh, I'll be watching. I was very hopeful in Avila. Until he extended Brad Ausmus. Both should have been fired that week. Very poor ownership but yeah, sure, Harris is the answer.

I think one thing we can say about Chris Ilitch is that maybe he inherited the loyalty blinders that Mike Ilitch wore during the Randy Smith era.  He finally pulled the plug, thankfully.

We don't know whether Scott Harris will be successful.  There was optimism when Dave Dombrowski was brought in because he had success on his resume.  At the very least, Harris has a different perspective as an outsider to the organization.  He has made some moves among the staff that were necessary (hitting coaching) and probably necessary (training staff, pitching coach with extensive kinesiology experience).  His stated motive of controlling the strike zone from both sides of the inning and how pitching counts can potentially dictate results makes sense.

[casimir]

3 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Yeah - Hosmer is not a bad baseball player, he's just not the player SD paid to get. At 32 ie might have a year or two left to bridge a gap.

But the Tigers have left themselves in a box by not maintaining Tork's flexibility to at least fill in at 3rd and Cabrera stuck at DH. If you had some flexibility to swing Tork to third maybe once a week against a heavy LHH team, and DH was open, you could carry an insurance policy like Hosmer, but right now, you are in a situation where if Torkelson starts to hit, you have no place to give a Hosmer ABs at all.

Yeah, if 3B hadn't been shut down completely for Torkelson, I'd say go with he at 3B and Hosmer at 1B for next season.  If Torkelson plays well at 3B, that's a bonus going forward.  His future is based off of the bat, so if that fails, 3B or 1B doesn't matter.

[gehringer_2]

9 minutes ago, casimir said:

Yeah, if 3B hadn't been shut down completely for Torkelson, I'd say go with he at 3B and Hosmer at 1B for next season.  If Torkelson plays well at 3B, that's a bonus going forward.  His future is based off of the bat, so if that fails, 3B or 1B doesn't matter.

the other half of the joke being that supposedly they pulled Tork from 3rd because his arm is not major league, and then happily gave Harold-noodle-arm-Castro 25 games there.

Edited December 17, 2022 by gehringer_2

[Motor City Sonics]

I think all that we can really hope for in 2023 is that last year we had possibly the worst hitting coaches in baseball and that, coupled with the shift and a dead ball, was the reason that Baez, Grossman, Candelario & Schoop all had career-worst years and Torkelson was totally lost.    Maybe they hired really good hitting coaches now,  maybe we will have a livelier ball and the shift ban won't take away so many hits and everyone returns to career averages next year, which could mean another 5-10 wins.     I have to believe Tork can hit at least .270 with some power.   From what I have gathered,  almost every team would have taken him with the #1 pick, but maybe that's wrong.   Maybe he's like fellow Arizona State star Reggie Jackson, who also had a terrible rookie season before he figured it out.  If he could be 66% of Reggie Jackson that would be awesome,  but our Tiger Of The Year hit .253 with .682 OPS and 5 home runs.   That was the best we could do and that's horrifying.  

I am pretty sure that Harris was told he can't spend money this year while Miggy's 32 million is on the books.    Next year at least 40 mil comes off the payroll with Miggy, Schoop and maybe even 60+ million if Baez leaves and then we'll have a clearer picture of what the angle is here.   Because if we shed all that payroll next year and then we don't spend, Harris & Co had better be damn near perfect in drafting and even then, we're looking at 2026?     

But it makes me wonder,  If Harris' hands are tied financially by Chris Illitch..........why the hell did he come here?   Was he about to get sacked in San Francisco and he just wanted the job security?    I don't know why he's leave his hometown for this if he wasn't given some money to use to bolster this roster.   I know, in order to win, you need to draft well and Al & his cronies were dog shit evaluators who either drafted poorly or didn't know how to develop guys (it's both, I think).  But I am really dreading the future now.   We know Chris Illitch doesn't give a shit about winning or losing and as long as the team can break even, everything is fine with him.   Don't need a fan boy like Cohen with the Mets to own the team, but it would be nice to have an owner who actually follows baseball and it's pretty clear to me Chris does not. 

Matthew Boyd,  Michael Lorenzen,  hoping we can maybe possibly get Wil Myers or Eric Hosmer............It's depressing as Hell.  

[Motor City Sonics]

55 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

the other half of the joke being that supposedly they pulled Tork from 3rd because his arm is not major league, and then happily gave Harold-noodle-arm-Castro 25 games there.

The reason is they have no prospects anywhere close to the majors for 1st base or 3rd base.      All those drafts and they couldn't find one.    We know how bad Al Avila was at drafting (Dave Dombrowski wasn't very good either), but he's worse than most people think.    I mean, they KNEW Miggy was getting old and they didn't even pull someone from another system that could step in at first or third.   Not talking about taking Tork to come in at 1b, but they should have been getting ready for Miggy's DH years back in 2017 or 2018.    It's astonishing, isn't it?  

[Tiger337]

I used to like Benintendi, but he has never really developed as expected.  He gets on base but doesn't really do anything else.  His power has regressed, his defense is about average at one of the least infuential positions.  He would be good to have for his on base skills, but not somebdy to build around on a five year contract.  

[Tenacious D]

21 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

I think all that we can really hope for in 2023 is that last year we had possibly the worst hitting coaches in baseball and that, coupled with the shift and a dead ball, was the reason that Baez, Grossman, Candelario & Schoop all had career-worst years and Torkelson was totally lost.    Maybe they hired really good hitting coaches now,  maybe we will have a livelier ball and the shift ban won't take away so many hits and everyone returns to career averages next year, which could mean another 5-10 wins.     I have to believe Tork can hit at least .270 with some power.   From what I have gathered,  almost every team would have taken him with the #1 pick, but maybe that's wrong.   Maybe he's like fellow Arizona State star Reggie Jackson, who also had a terrible rookie season before he figured it out.  If he could be 66% of Reggie Jackson that would be awesome,  but our Tiger Of The Year hit .253 with .682 OPS and 5 home runs.   That was the best we could do and that's horrifying.  

I am pretty sure that Harris was told he can't spend money this year while Miggy's 32 million is on the books.    Next year at least 40 mil comes off the payroll with Miggy, Schoop and maybe even 60+ million if Baez leaves and then we'll have a clearer picture of what the angle is here.   Because if we shed all that payroll next year and then we don't spend, Harris & Co had better be damn near perfect in drafting and even then, we're looking at 2026?     

But it makes me wonder,  If Harris' hands are tied financially by Chris Illitch..........why the hell did he come here?   Was he about to get sacked in San Francisco and he just wanted the job security?    I don't know why he's leave his hometown for this if he wasn't given some money to use to bolster this roster.   I know, in order to win, you need to draft well and Al & his cronies were dog shit evaluators who either drafted poorly or didn't know how to develop guys (it's both, I think).  But I am really dreading the future now.   We know Chris Illitch doesn't give a shit about winning or losing and as long as the team can break even, everything is fine with him.   Don't need a fan boy like Cohen with the Mets to own the team, but it would be nice to have an owner who actually follows baseball and it's pretty clear to me Chris does not. 

Matthew Boyd,  Michael Lorenzen,  hoping we can maybe possibly get Wil Myers or Eric Hosmer............It's depressing as Hell.  

Which free agents do you think we missed out on?  Based on the contracts they received, I would not have wanted any of them, except for Haniger.

[Motor City Sonics]

8 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I used to like Benintendi, but he has never really developed as expected.  He gets on base but doesn't really do anything else.  His power has regressed, his defense is about average at one of the least infuential positions.  He would be good to have for his on base skills, but not somebdy to build around on a five year contract.  

But, based on what Harris said about the Comerica Park dimensions (which makes me feel are staying the same), isn't he exactly the guy you want for here..........hits in the gaps, gets on base,  can cover some ground in the OF.      But no, can't spend this year.   Chris The Grinch has a heart 2 times too small for that. 

[Motor City Sonics]

Just now, Tenacious D said:

Which free agents do you think we missed out on?  Based on the contracts they received, I would not have wanted any of them, except for Haniger.

I would have liked for us to be in the mix or in a conversation...............Even if it's just for show.    Give us something to hang our hopes on.     Nothing.   Boyd & Lorenzen.  Yippee !     

[gehringer_2]

30 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

If Harris' hands are tied financially by Chris Illitch..........why the hell did he come here? 

I have a hard time figuring why Chris is constantly tagged as the problem when he has been willing to spend  on MiLB and training facilities (which his father wasn't) and ponied up substantial cash last year. I don't believe the issue is resource. If that is what was holding them back Avila would still be here doing what the owner who didn't want to spend money wanted him to (given that theory). A problem right now is that other than the stupid money contracts being handed out, which almost every baseball observer here concurs are foolish for the teams offering them, there is precious little available mid-tier where the Tigers have the scope to operate and could theoretically be making upgrades to the team. Teams are keeping young mid-teir players in the fold more than ever because teams know they are the undervalued commodity in the game.

I won't bother relinking the dead horse GIF but the Tigers' problem is coming up with enough players of their own to get to within striking distance of what you can do in free agency. Fans who constantly grouse about them not spending Mets level money need to find a different team to root for or accustom themselves to being disappointed because the Tigers, along with more than half the other teams in MLB, can't and will never play in that money league. Mid teir managements have to win with smarts and working harder - that's just the way it is.

Edited December 17, 2022 by gehringer_2

[Motor City Sonics]

Oh, and if you ever want to pull anyone here at all, you'll have to overpay at first.   Like with Pudge and Magglio, but that was absolutely worth it.     It won't look nearly as bad as Miggy's last few years, but yes, you'll have to pay someone too much to come here.       I am just coming to the realization that unless everything goes perfectly, we're not contending for probably at least 4 more years..........and that's really hard to take. 

[Motor City Sonics]

I don't think $15 mil a year for Benintendi is insane.   

 

I think there is a curse on Illitch related teams.    Freakish injuries, nothing but bad luck.   The Pistons who play in their building.......get a #1 draft pick who is already looking injury prone and will miss the season. Vrana & Bertuzzi go down to long term injury,  Ned can't stop a beach ball,  Larkin's hurt now.......and the Tigers with their nightmare of a season.   Until they do what they promised with The District, they will be cursed !   

And I'm not sure the Lions aren't still cursed.   They've got us believing, but isn't this what they always do, build us up and then like Lucy Van Pelt pull the football away?     It would be so them to have to only win 1 of their last 2 games to get into the playoffs and then lose both of them, wouldn't it?    The most Lions thing ever.  

[gehringer_2]

9 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

I think there is a curse on Illitch related teams.    Freakish injuries,

I think it is certainly true that today, with every athlete trained to their physical limit and coached to play even beyond that, injuries are pretty much the major determinant for any successful team. The thing is, we feel cursed now, but that is because you tend not to notice how good your luck was when nothing bad happens. In 2006 we had 4 pitchers make 30 starts. That was incredible good fortune, and exactly what got us to the WS. 

Today any fool can see that in MLB, the first team to figure out how to keep their pitchers healthy and throwing hard will be on their way to being the next dynasty.

Edited December 17, 2022 by gehringer_2

[Dan Gilmore]

The pitching side of things last year was a mix of bad and good. Injuries to the rotation, but decent fill in service from low expectation arms, plus a strong BP. I wouldn’t say things need to go perfectly there to contend in the next four years. It’s the other side that was and likely is the big problem. If Tork, Meadows and Schoop all repeat 2022 next year, and Carpenter and Baddoo never achieve the success they have flashed, it will be a long haul. Or require lots of outside talent coming in. If several of those guys are good in 2023, the team will still be bad, but I don’t have the feeling of gloom that will last on into the decade. 

[RatkoVarda]

only impact player remaining is Swanson and last pitcher is Evoladi, both with QO.

maybe soon those teams that missed out, or sat out due to price, will look to trade market

Manning, ERod, Lange, Soto, and some other young arms have some value.

Malloy seems to actually fit what Harris claims he wants

 

[buddha]

32 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

I have a hard time figuring why Chris is constantly tagged as the problem when he has been willing to spend  on MiLB and training facilities (which his father wasn't) and ponied up substantial cash last year. I don't believe the issue is resource. If that is what was holding them back Avila would still be here doing what the owner who didn't want to spend money wanted him to (given that theory). A problem right now is that other than the stupid money contracts being handed out, which almost every baseball observer here concurs are foolish for the teams offering them, there is precious little available mid-tier where the Tigers have the scope to operate and could theoretically be making upgrades to the team. Teams are keeping young mid-teir players in the fold more than ever because teams know they are the undervalued commodity in the game.

I won't bother relinking the dead horse GIF but the Tigers' problem is coming up with enough players of their own to get to within striking distance of what you can do in free agency. Fans who constantly grouse about them not spending Mets level money need to find a different team to root for or accustom themselves to being disappointed because the Tigers, along with more than half the other teams in MLB, can't and will never play in that money league. Mid teir managements have to win with smarts and working harder - that's just the way it is.

chris is the problem because he didnt fire avila until last year.

[gehringer_2]

3 minutes ago, buddha said:

chris is the problem because he didnt fire avila until last year.

there is that.

[Motor City Sonics]

2 minutes ago, buddha said:

chris is the problem because he didnt fire avila until last year.

We went from one extreme to another and it's left us with motion sickness................Dad spent stupidly, but it sure as hell was fun.    I can understand wanting to not do that anymore being a "small market".      But we're not a small market, dammit, this is a huge sports town that has been going through a decade of disaster.    I hate the Small Market mentality.  When this team is good, that park fills up.       It's the sucky part of baseball.   It takes a long time for guys to develop so it takes a long time to see if your front office is doing a good job, but I think it was pretty clear by the end of 2019 that Al was pretty bad at his job.    Same thing as Matt Millen.  The Lions let him linger 3 years after everyone else knew.    

So, in order to be truly fair with Harris, we can't really tell until about 2026, if he's doing a good job.  I like the people he hired - they all came from really good organizations, but after 7 years of awfulness we have to wait another 3 or 4.  It's brutal.  

[mtutiger]

21 minutes ago, Dan Gilmore said:

The pitching side of things last year was a mix of bad and good. Injuries to the rotation, but decent fill in service from low expectation arms, plus a strong BP. I wouldn’t say things need to go perfectly there to contend in the next four years. It’s the other side that was and likely is the big problem. If Tork, Meadows and Schoop all repeat 2022 next year, and Carpenter and Baddoo never achieve the success they have flashed, it will be a long haul. Or require lots of outside talent coming in. If several of those guys are good in 2023, the team will still be bad, but I don’t have the feeling of gloom that will last on into the decade. 

In a lot of ways, setting aside the rookies, 2022 may just be inverse of 2021 (a year where a bunch of guys had career years that would be hard to replicate). And it stands to reason that last year's poor play might not necessarily replicate as well.

Either way, I understand the desire to make big splashes in free agency, to get big name free agents. But with where they are at, the thing that will advance them toward .500 more than anything else are the guys that are still on the roster... if the young kids play to their expectations and some of the vets perform to their track record, they potentially can overperform the low expectations. Signing Dansby Swanson isn't gonna cut it, isn't gonna make up all that ground on its own

Edited December 17, 2022 by mtutiger

[Motor City Sonics]

I'm just saying that knowing Miggy's 32 million is going away that you can't bring in ONE bona fide MLB hitter to this team.  Not one?   Come on, man.   Not asking for much.     I know we weren't in on the really big guys and all those teams will regret what they've done, but we have a team of AAAA players and has-beens.     I hope they can do wonders with Tork and fix Baez and I hope Meadows can return to his average self. 

I'm like Red at the end of Shawshank.................I hope, but hope is a dangerous word.  

[Toddwert]

Just now, Motor City Sonics said:

We went from one extreme to another and it's left us with motion sickness................Dad spent stupidly, but it sure as hell was fun.    I can understand wanting to not do that anymore being a "small market".      But we're not a small market, dammit, this is a huge sports town that has been going through a decade of disaster.    I hate the Small Market mentality.  When this team is good, that park fills up.       It's the sucky part of baseball.   It takes a long time for guys to develop so it takes a long time to see if your front office is doing a good job, but I think it was pretty clear by the end of 2019 that Al was pretty bad at his job.    Same thing as Matt Millen.  The Lions let him linger 3 years after everyone else knew.    

So, in order to be truly fair with Harris, we can't really tell until about 2026, if he's doing a good job.  I like the people he hired - they all came from really good organizations, but after 7 years of awfulness we have to wait another 3 or 4.  It's brutal.  

thank you ... I always said you putting a winning team out there and the park will be full and people will watch them. 250k+ people go to stadiums in the area  to watch football in any fall weekend..  This is a sports loving state

[Motor City Sonics]

The J.D. Martinez trade was maybe the lowest point for Al.     They'd have been better off just taking the compensation in the draft.   3 players..........none of them any good at all, not even BAD major leaguers.    Didn't have to trade J.D., but Al opened his mouth SEVERAL times with how desperate he was to trade guys and it took all of his leverage away.   He was so awful.  

[Motor City Sonics]

This town is so ready to get behind someone.       Thankfully Michigan football got good and filled that void, but its not the same as the whole area getting behind a team named DETROIT.      This has been worse than the 70s and the 70s were awful.  

[gehringer_2]

12 minutes ago, buddha said:

chris is the problem because he didnt fire avila until last year.

but to come back to this, giving Al the last couple of years may well turn out to have been a big mistake, but I would note that the major critque we keep hearing is that Ilitch is too cheap, not that he was too loyal. The evidence about one doesn't support the other and the long term implications of one are not the same as the other. Loyalty is a much more complex issue. How many capricious owners have put good teams into purgatory because they were too quick to fire a great GM that got in the line of fire of their own impatience or ego?