chasfh Posted January 19, 2023 Author Share Posted January 19, 2023 4 minutes ago, Biff Mayhem said: I'm just over here wondering why we're calling the male Illitches "Doc". These are my pet nicknames for them. It's a Duvalier-Haiti reference, the passing down of rule from the daddy directly to the son. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMRivdogs Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 2 minutes ago, mtutiger said: People mostly remember the later years with Pizza Sr. chasing the ring like Ahab going after the Whale, but the full picture is just more complicated. I went to way too many games in the early 2000s to forget... went to way more than I can even do now because of geography. This situation they find themselves in today really isn't much different and, if anything, they may be in slightly better shape than what DD inherited when he came aboard. If I remember correctly John McHale Jr had pretty much checked out as President, Denise I was attempting a power play. A lot of factions squabbling over what direction to take the organization. Or at least that was the feeling of a couple of connections who got to look behind the curtain at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted January 19, 2023 Author Share Posted January 19, 2023 10 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: The truth is a sports org is a different animal than your normal business. You can sustain and prosper in the average business venture with a lot of average people doing average level work, you don't have to constantly churn your organization searching for only the highest performers (in fact that becomes counter productive in most orgs in most cases) as long as your business model is not too greedy (i.e. you don't wake up every morning with a new plan to conquer the world) your are fine. But of course that's not how it works with a pro sports team if you have any interest in winning championships. It is by nature the most greedy business model. You spend your adult life on one side of that equation, could be figuring out how to run on the other side might be a matter of some trial and error. Yes, this, and also, the public visibility into the success or failure of a sports franchise is taken more personally by the public than the success or failure of a pizza business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 3 minutes ago, CMRivdogs said: If I remember correctly John McHale Jr had pretty much checked out as President, Denise I was attempting a power play. A lot of factions squabbling over what direction to take the organization. Or at least that was the feeling of a couple of connections who got to look behind the curtain at the time. Yeah, I do remember the reporting about Denise I at the time as well. Was downright Dallas-esque lol The winning post-2006 papers over a lot, because the Tigers Organization was pretty freaking dysfunctional at times prior to 2006. Arguably more dysfunctional than they are now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biff Mayhem Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 7 minutes ago, CMRivdogs said: If I remember correctly John McHale Jr had pretty much checked out as President, Denise I was attempting a power play. A lot of factions squabbling over what direction to take the organization. Or at least that was the feeling of a couple of connections who got to look behind the curtain at the time. John McHale's only job was to get a new stadium built. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 Just now, mtutiger said: Yeah, I do remember the reporting about Denise I at the time as well. Was downright Dallas-esque lol The winning post-2006 papers over a lot, because the Tigers Organization was pretty freaking dysfunctional at times prior to 2006. Arguably more dysfunctional than they are now. It does appear Mike set it up for Chris not to have to worry about the sibs. I suppose there is still the question of whether any of the current arrangements are upset again when Marion passes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenacious D Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 11 minutes ago, CMRivdogs said: If I remember correctly John McHale Jr had pretty much checked out as President, Denise I was attempting a power play. A lot of factions squabbling over what direction to take the organization. Or at least that was the feeling of a couple of connections who got to look behind the curtain at the time. This has the potential to become the least interesting docuseries ever. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 4 minutes ago, mtutiger said: Yeah, I do remember the reporting about Denise I at the time as well. Was downright Dallas-esque lol The winning post-2006 papers over a lot, because the Tigers Organization was pretty freaking dysfunctional at times prior to 2006. Arguably more dysfunctional than they are now. Weird you mention Dallas because her husband or ex husband Jim Lites left the org and went on to the Dallas Stars. He was instrumental in getting the Russians here for the Red Wings. There was a lot of weird things going on with that family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 I got the sense that McHale's job was to get the stadium built and to act as the liaison with the league because Ilitch was still sort of an outsider. McHale's got a family history in the game. I've said before that the strategy in the mid 90's wasn't flawed. You had McHale, Smith, and Buddy Bell all as legacy people running the team. Not a bad way to go. I wonder how things might have gone had they not built such a silly ballpark to begin with and never made the Juan G trade. There was also the issue of payroll issues. Rumors were the team had to get a loan from the league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cowan Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 13 minutes ago, oblong said: I got the sense that McHale's job was to get the stadium built and to act as the liaison with the league because Ilitch was still sort of an outsider. McHale's got a family history in the game. I've said before that the strategy in the mid 90's wasn't flawed. You had McHale, Smith, and Buddy Bell all as legacy people running the team. Not a bad way to go. I wonder how things might have gone had they not built such a silly ballpark to begin with and never made the Juan G trade. There was also the issue of payroll issues. Rumors were the team had to get a loan from the league. Yeah McHale and Smith publicly admitted that the park was designed for a "National League" style of play with, you know, triples and stuff like that. For a franchise that had worshipped generations of power hitters. They are the two biggest idiots that ever worked for the Tigers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 (edited) 21 minutes ago, oblong said: I got the sense that McHale's job was to get the stadium built and to act as the liaison with the league because Ilitch was still sort of an outsider. McHale's got a family history in the game. I've said before that the strategy in the mid 90's wasn't flawed. You had McHale, Smith, and Buddy Bell all as legacy people running the team. Not a bad way to go. I wonder how things might have gone had they not built such a silly ballpark to begin with and never made the Juan G trade. There was also the issue of payroll issues. Rumors were the team had to get a loan from the league. I can see how it looked fine on paper, but Randy Smith was one of the worst GM's in franchise history. (And yes, worse than even Avila imo) Other factors could have changed, but it wouldn't have changed how barren the talent pipeline was or the absolutely abysmal drafting that took place on his watch. Edited January 19, 2023 by mtutiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 1 minute ago, mtutiger said: I can see how it looked fine on paper, but Randy Smith was one of the worst GM's in franchise history. (And yes, worse than even Avila imo) Other factors could have changed, but it wouldn't have changed how barren the talent pipeline was or the absolutely abysmal drafting that took place on his watch. Oh, we might find out that history (Smith) has repeated itself (Avila). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 Randy Smith was a disaster. I agree he was worse than Avila. Just look back at the drafts and development. The list of top draft picks who were utter failures is amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 (edited) 8 minutes ago, casimir said: Oh, we might find out that history (Smith) has repeated itself (Avila). The fact that Avila didn't completely **** up in at least one of his Top 5 draft picks (gonna go out on a limb and suggest Riley Greene will be a very good ML player) and the fact that he has occasionally blind squirreled his way into decent selections a couple of times (ie. Skubal) gives Randy the edge... Smith was somehow worse and almost never found any useful talent during his tenure. Edited January 19, 2023 by mtutiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 1 minute ago, mtutiger said: The fact that Avila didn't completely **** up at least one of his Top 5 draft picks (gonna go out on a limb and suggest Riley Greene will be a very good ML player) and the fact that he has occasionally blind squirreled his way into decent selections a couple of times (ie. Skubal) gives Randy the edge... Smith was somehow worse and almost never found any useful talent during his tenure. I am guessing Avila was on the crapper or something when it was time to draft Skubal. Someone else made that move. That's my theory. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longgone Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 3 minutes ago, casimir said: I am guessing Avila was on the crapper or something when it was time to draft Skubal. Someone else made that move. That's my theory. GM's don't make the picks anyway. They do, however, hire the guys who make the picks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 3 minutes ago, Longgone said: GM's don't make the picks anyway. They do, however, hire the guys who make the picks. Well, you're no fun to my theory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenacious D Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 5 minutes ago, Longgone said: GM's don't make the picks anyway. They do, however, hire the guys who make the picks. Sorry, but Kevin Costner proved you wrong when he selected Vontae Mack (no matter what). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longgone Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 6 minutes ago, casimir said: Well, you're no fun to my theory. Not at all, he may well have been on the crapper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 1 hour ago, Jim Cowan said: Yeah McHale and Smith publicly admitted that the park was designed for a "National League" style of play with, you know, triples and stuff like that. For a franchise that had worshipped generations of power hitters. They are the two biggest idiots that ever worked for the Tigers. that the park would be a problem was baked in as soon as it was decided to have the OF facing South. All the other architectural and fence issues follow from that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 2 hours ago, chasfh said: ... But I can see that kind of set-it-and-forget-it approach in both. Set-it and forget-it is fine if you have the right management team in place... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 1 hour ago, casimir said: I am guessing Avila was on the crapper or something when it was time to draft Skubal. Someone else made that move. That's my theory. Avila was on the crapper in the 9th round... Boras walked into the john and said "Avila, you in here?" "Yeah" "You're drafting Tarik Skubal." "OK?" "I'll let your guys know who they are going to draft. Your pick is coming up shortly." "Is he any good? Who is he?" "Al, you're good to go. Don't worry about it" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edman85 Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 Yeah, I doubt the GM is actively involved in 9th round picks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 2 hours ago, Longgone said: Not at all, he may well have been on the crapper. Some people do their best thinking on the crapper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 Being in a pitcher's park is a poor excuse for being a bad GM. That is something a good GM should be able to use to his advantage. Dombrowski appeared to do that by buildind around starting pitching. Harris has said that being in an unusual park is an advantage. Let's see if he can take advantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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