2022-23 Detroit Tigers Offseason Thread

[1984Echoes]

2 minutes ago, chasfh said:

He was an average to even plus defender before this year, if you believe OA, anyway. He’s never going to be coached up to Nolan Arenado, but are we sure his defense has fallen off the cliff permanently as well? I wonder how much the hitting woes he wasn’t getting any help for affected the rest of his game, which is a thing. Would it better to completely punt on offense to get Kreidler’s glove in there for 140 games? FWIW, I doubt Harris will be willing to throw that against the wall.

This is where I'm at and why I'm good with bringing back Candy.

And the $7 mill is absolutely meaningless. It doesn't preclude the team from finding any other option out there, if there is one to be found... and obtaining him. I see no reason to not give him the QO unless the team believes he is actually broken...

As one additional point: If Candy is on the team, and Tork needs some extended AAA time (I doubt it... just sayin'), Candy can actually passably handle 1B. I'd rather that as backup option to Tork than Miggy, Schoop, or Harold... who should be kept at DH, 2B, and Utility, respectively. And I would rather Kreidler get all that time at 3B as well, rather than keeping Candy at 3B and going to one of those other options.

Just my 2 cents.

[mtutiger]

5 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I think a good argument is that there’s probably nobody even close to Candelario who is reasonably available to us next year, unless we want to pay 4x his projected arb to lure Arenado here, which I promise ain’t happening.

I'd take a year of Evan Longoria over Candy in a heartbeat, fwiw.

The more we discuss, the more I believe Candy probably ends up coming back. Just don't see it as a guarantee though, especially with a new PBO who is gonna want to make his mark on the roster.

Edited October 24, 2022 by mtutiger

[1984Echoes]

25 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Would you pay $7 million for this?

AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	HBP	SO	SB	CS	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPS
512	69	131	33	4	17	63	58	6	126	1	1	.256	.338	.436	.774

And this is the other key point... I think Candy is closer to this guy and 3 WAR than the .630 OPS 0.5 WAR guy from 2022...

[1984Echoes]

There's nothing left of Longoria. That ship sailed 3 years ago.

No thanks.

[chasfh]

23 hours ago, Edman85 said:

Papierski is way near the top of the chopping block. Don't be thrown by him (and Palacios) being a Harris acquisition. The whole point of claiming guys like that is to bring them in and try to slip them through waivers later.

This comment just flashed back to me and I have to ask, why would we have to slip Papierski and Palacios through waivers just to, I assume, stash them in our system as depth? They both have rookie status intact through 2023, so what obligations do we have to them and their career now that their passing through waivers will relieve us of? This is an honest question as I suspect there are transactional niceties involved here that I don’t understand.

[mtutiger]

4 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

There's nothing left of Longoria. That ship sailed 3 years ago.

No thanks.

His OPS was almost 30 points higher than Candy's last year... and I dont have a ton of faith that 2021 Candy is coming back.

That's an example of a calculated risk.l, a one year rental until they can fill the position on a more permanent basis. Particularly if Harris/Co dont believe Candy can be fixed.

Edited October 24, 2022 by mtutiger

[1984Echoes]

Just now, mtutiger said:

... That's an example of a calculated risk. Particularly if ...

That's a calculated risk that help builds this team for the future?

37 y.o. dead-in-the-water Longoria?

I think Harris has a different definition of calculated risk than that...

But... we'll see.

[chasfh]

8 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

I'd take a year of Evan Longoria over Candy in a heartbeat, fwiw.

The more we discuss, the more I believe Candy probably ends up coming back. Just don't see it as a guarantee though, especially with a new PBO who is gonna want to make his mark on the roster.

I definitely would not take a year of Evan Longoria over Jeimer, so agree to disagree on that one.

 

[chasfh]

I think it is fair to stipulate that everything is conditional, nothing’s a guarantee, and we have no idea what Scott Harris will do, so I don’t think that should stifle our speculation, which IMHO is the funnest part of an offseason thread.

[mtutiger]

30 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

That's a calculated risk that help builds this team for the future?

Is Candy a building block for the future of this team?

That's a fair question after 2022.

Edited October 24, 2022 by mtutiger

[chasfh]

12 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

That's a calculated risk that help builds this team for the future?

37 y.o. dead-in-the-water Longoria?

I think Harris has a different definition of calculated risk than that...

But... we'll see.

In defense of mtutiger’s point, a move to bring on Longoria would not be a build-for-the-future move any more than keeping Candelario around for another year will build for the future. Either of them are placeholders for the guy we’re all besotted with at the moment, Keith Colt (or Colt Keith or Colt Colt or Keith Keith or whatever his name is). He’s the third baseman everyone is in love with for 2024 and beyond, so anyone else is a placeholder in the meantime, or at least until Colt plays himself out of our hearts. 

The $64 question is, can we fix Jeimer enough to give us two or three wins next year and then see what we want to do with him for the year after that? Or do we throw fungible-3B-of-the-day out there for six months while we wait around for Colt?

Edited October 24, 2022 by chasfh

[mtutiger]

5 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I think it is fair to stipulate that everything is conditional, nothing’s a guarantee, and we have no idea what Scott Harris will do, so I don’t think that should stifle our speculation, which IMHO is the funnest part of an offseason thread.

The unknown of how Scott Harris will operate actually makes this offseason way more fun and interesting than it would have been if Al were still in charge 

[gehringer_2]

5 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

The unknown of how Scott Harris will operate actually makes this offseason way more fun and interesting than it would have been if Al were still in charge 

exactly. One question might be: which is more along the lines of Harris' idea of 'calculated risk'; risking a chunk of money on a guy you have doubts about, or being OK with churning through 3 or 4 guys at some position in one season looking for one that can stick and accepting the risk of some bad play? Two very different approaches that you could hang the same label on depending on your perspective.

Edited October 24, 2022 by gehringer_2

[Edman85]

22 minutes ago, chasfh said:

This comment just flashed back to me and I have to ask, why would we have to slip Papierski and Palacios through waivers just to, I assume, stash them in our system as depth? They both have rookie status intact through 2023, so what obligations do we have to them and their career now that their passing through waivers will relieve us of? This is an honest question as I suspect there are transactional niceties involved here that I don’t understand.

 

Because they may not be worthy of 40 man roster spots, but you still want to try to get them in the fold. It is something teams have done a lot of lately. Get a player on waivers and pass then through yourself later.

Palacios has more than 6 years in the minors under his belt and would be free agent eligible if outrighted, but Papierski wouldnt.

[mtutiger]

12 minutes ago, chasfh said:

In defense of mtutiger’s point, a move to bring on Longoria would not be a build-for-the-future move any more than keeping Candelario around for another year will build for the future. Either of them are placeholders for the guy we’re all besotted with at the moment, Keith Colt (or Colt Keith or Colt Colt or Keith Keith or whatever his name is). He’s the third baseman everyone is in love with for 2024 and beyond, so anyone else is a placeholder in the meantime, or at least until Colt plays himself out of our hearts. 

It isn't even so much Colt Keith more than the fact that I dont know if Candy plays a future role regardless.

Unless Harris pulls off a trade of some kind at the position that brings in someone of promise, unless one believes Candy is a multiple year option going forward, it's really a question of how to cover 2023 and move the ball down the field until next offseason.

On that score, if you don't believe in Candy (and if the Tigers don't), maybe they find it worth the risk to move on and try to find something else.

Not trying to stifle debate, the discussion has been interesting from my end. But it's one of the more interesting decisions Harris will have to make this offseason and can see arguments on both sides.

Edited October 24, 2022 by mtutiger

[bobrob2004]

51 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Of course. That was always going to be the condition.

The discussion at hand among us sitting out here in nobodyland is, do we think he’s fixable, or do we think his career is over? I’m in Camp Fixable. How about you?

I'm in Camp Blow It All Up and Start Over. 

[Tenacious D]

At this point, I'd be OK with rolling the dice on moving Schoop to 3B next season if we can't come up with a better option.  He's already signed and will be without a position next year, once we acquire a real SS and move Baez to 2B.

For consideration, the Yankees will need to desperately cut payroll to attempt to keep Judge next season.  If we could get one of their better prospects, I think it might be worth taking on Josh Donaldson and the remaining year on his crappy contract.  The Yankees would probably throw some money into the mix, too, like we did with Verlander.  He seems like a bit of a douche, but that's OK for one season if we can get a very good prospect as part of the deal.

This is why this offseason will be fun to watch--with few tradable assets, it will be interesting to see how innovative Harris will get.

[HeyAbbott]

I think this  discussion on Candy does depend upon how one evaluates, or, more precisely, how one perceives risk. It looks like,  after having given 2022 AL regular season stats a quick glance, it will take a .700 team OPS to be in contention for a playoff spot. To have a Tigers team OPS of .700 or over as of today is not likely at all for the 2023 season as currently constructed. There should be steps to move toward that objective though.

I am not convinced that Candy or any currently known replacement fulfills that need. I think that  he isn't worth 7 million based on performance. Do you bet with Candy and keep him, or do you bet against him and cut ties with him? I cut ties in some fashion and gamble on someone else.I will spend that money and every dime coming off the payroll this year plus more if I were running the show.

Edited October 24, 2022 by HeyAbbott

[mtutiger]

16 minutes ago, Tenacious D said:

At this point, I'd be OK with rolling the dice on moving Schoop to 3B next season if we can't come up with a better option.  He's already signed and will be without a position next year, once we acquire a real SS and move Baez to 2B.

For consideration, the Yankees will need to desperately cut payroll to attempt to keep Judge next season.  If we could get one of their better prospects, I think it might be worth taking on Josh Donaldson and the remaining year on his crappy contract.  The Yankees would probably throw some money into the mix, too, like we did with Verlander.  He seems like a bit of a douche, but that's OK for one season if we can get a very good prospect as part of the deal.

This is why this offseason will be fun to watch--with few tradable assets, it will be interesting to see how innovative Harris will get.

The MLBTradeRumors site included the Tigers in with other teams as possible landing sites for Gio Urshela if the Twins choose to move on from him as has been rumored. Although I doubt that's happening for a variety of reasons.

[casimir]

Only 157 days until Opening Day.

[chasfh]

50 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

The unknown of how Scott Harris will operate actually makes this offseason way more fun and interesting than it would have been if Al were still in charge 

I agree so long as the discussion goes like "I wonder how Scott Harris is going to approach the roster, maybe he will do X or Y", versus "I don't know what Scott Harris will do, no use speculating about it until we find out for sure", which is kind of where concluding "it's up to the team to figure out whether he can be fixed" leaves it.

[casimir]

45 minutes ago, bobrob2004 said:

I'm in Camp Blow It All Up and Start Over. 

Is this the @gehringer_2 plan of only 8 men on the roster type of blow it up?

[chasfh]

22 minutes ago, Tenacious D said:

At this point, I'd be OK with rolling the dice on moving Schoop to 3B next season if we can't come up with a better option.  He's already signed and will be without a position next year, once we acquire a real SS and move Baez to 2B.

For consideration, the Yankees will need to desperately cut payroll to attempt to keep Judge next season.  If we could get one of their better prospects, I think it might be worth taking on Josh Donaldson and the remaining year on his crappy contract.  The Yankees would probably throw some money into the mix, too, like we did with Verlander.  He seems like a bit of a douche, but that's OK for one season if we can get a very good prospect as part of the deal.

This is why this offseason will be fun to watch--with few tradable assets, it will be interesting to see how innovative Harris will get.

Respectfully, I think this organization has rolled the dice way too much in the last several years, which is exactly what planning to play Schoop at a position he's manned for exactly one inning in the past eight seasons would be doing. I think that's why Baby Doc hired Harris: he's gotten sick of his front office rolling dice and crapping out. Particularly at third base!

[chasfh]

16 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

The MLBTradeRumors site included the Tigers in with other teams as possible landing sites for Gio Urshela if the Twins choose to move on from him as has been rumored. Although I doubt that's happening for a variety of reasons.

I wouldn't mind seeing Urshela in a Tigers uniform for a year or maybe two, although I would think there would be an even greater market for his services than for Jeimer's, and that would require outbidding other teams and might even involve multiple years.

Edited October 24, 2022 by chasfh

[chasfh]

So, with four days off before the World Series starts, and therefore not in conflict with actual games, do we see any substantial moves by Scott Harris this week?