2022-23 Detroit Tigers Offseason Thread

[oblong]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

This does not worry me in the least.

 

 

WHo was the longtime WSox pitching coach?  Wasn't he well thought of around the league?  Did he go somewhere else?

 

[gehringer_2]

4 minutes ago, oblong said:

WHo was the longtime WSox pitching coach?  Wasn't he well thought of around the league?  Did he go somewhere else?

 

Don Cooper? I think he was let go when LaRussa arrived?

Wiki doesn't note that he's attached to any team now. Now 66, maybe he's hung 'em up.

Edited November 1, 2022 by gehringer_2

[mtutiger]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

I suppose it's a distinct possibility that Baby Doc is looking for a Tampa Bay situation: get to the playoffs, even World Series, on a regular basis without having to spend to acquire or keep players, for the personal purpose of establishing respectability as a baseball tycoon, which you can't achieve if you're averaging literally 98 losses a year.

My time is starting to run out, and I have only so many reboots left to live through. Since there are no signs Baby Doc is gonna sell, I'm left to root for the idea that's wrong and he is gonna spend when the time comes.

There are a lot of reasons to be concerned with Pizza Jr., but I would be surprised if the level of payroll was reduced much from where it currently sits.

The signings last offseason, inadequate as they were seen by the fans, wouldn't have happened otherwise.

Edited November 1, 2022 by mtutiger

[1984Echoes]

2 hours ago, sabretooth said:

Chris could choose to push for a 90 win team but he'd have to spend a lot more $$ than he's ever done before, and I don't see that happening now or ever...

In fact, if Harris is successful in building an above average (85-90 win) team ... Chris would take that as prima facie evidence that you can win on the cheap...

If on the other hand, Harris is not successful in building a fairly consistent above average team with a below average payroll, Chris will at some point fire him...

Either way, I don't see Harris building a fairly consistent above average team with a consistently below average payroll.

I suspect what is more doable for Harris is ...

Wow...

There is no basis for reality here whatsoever. This is nor realistic at all... it is simply your OWN PERSONAL PROJECTION.

Quite a bit off the charts, and laughable, actually. Hilarious.

Your PERSONAL PROJECTION onto what Ilitch/ Harris are going to do for Tigers is the OPPOSITE of reality.

Just wanted to let you know that...

[Tenacious D]

There really is no evidence that Ilitch Jr would/will not spend.  You might not like the return, but the Tigers made significant investments last offseason in Baez, ERod, Chafin and acquiring Barnhart.  I see no reason to think he will prevent Harris from doing what he needs to this offseason.  
 

I don’t think he’ll have an open checkbook like his Dad did, but few teams do.

[1984Echoes]

8 minutes ago, Tenacious D said:

There really is no evidence that Ilitch Jr would/will not spend.  You might not like the return, but the Tigers made significant investments last offseason in Baez, ERod, Chafin and acquiring Barnhart.  I see no reason to think he will prevent Harris from doing what he needs to this offseason.  
 

I don’t think he’ll have an open checkbook like his Dad did, but few teams do.

Which already explodes Sabretooth's "projected reality" (my words) as PURE FANTASY.

Dark and dreary fantasy... but fantasy nonetheless...

[chasfh]

3 hours ago, HeyAbbott said:

I am 99% in line with the guys you have leaving. The one exception is Miggy, and I want him gone immediately. With the position players we have, Haase, Greene, Tork, and Carpenter are probably what I look to build around.  With everything else, if another and better option can be found, take it. I am leaning toward keeping Schoop and replacing Candy. My gut says we aren't going to get an average mlb performance from Candy in '23.

I think you will get your wish in that Miggy will either be talked into stepping away with the money, which I think is a real long shot, or be spending the majority of the year on one of the ILs, I'm thinking probably the 60.

I suppose another option is that he clocks in with another 400 or 450 plate appearances, but I think that's also a long shot.

[sabretooth]

2 hours ago, 1984Echoes said:

Wow...

There is no basis for reality here whatsoever. This is nor realistic at all... it is simply your OWN PERSONAL PROJECTION.

Quite a bit off the charts, and laughable, actually. Hilarious.

Your PERSONAL PROJECTION onto what Ilitch/ Harris are going to do for Tigers is the OPPOSITE of reality.

Just wanted to let you know that...

You *know* for a fact that Chris is going to spend at least an average amount on team payroll?  Great!  Glad to hear it.  Can't wait to see what Harris does with those kinds of resources.

Rock on dude.

[sabretooth]

2 hours ago, Tenacious D said:

There really is no evidence that Ilitch Jr would/will not spend.  You might not like the return, but the Tigers made significant investments last offseason in Baez, ERod, Chafin and acquiring Barnhart.  I see no reason to think he will prevent Harris from doing what he needs to this offseason.  
 

I don’t think he’ll have an open checkbook like his Dad did, but few teams do.

Theres no evidence that Chris will spend an average or better payroll consistently (or at all).

He did increase his spending in 2022, I supported that openly, but it was still a below average level of spend even with Miggys huge $$.

I will believe it when I see it.

[gehringer_2]

12 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I'm thinking probably the 60.

I'm thinking the 40% is that it goes more like this season all over. A decent start - hits a few long balls in ST. Every body feeling happy.  Then the power will disappear but the average will be good and he'll hang just below 700 OPS with a decent OBP - a month, 2, maybe even 3, but then at some point everything is going to start to hurt again, the output will plummet,  and the only question will be how many months does it go on before the Tigers stop waiting for the Spring version of Miggy to return and make the needed move.

Edited November 1, 2022 by gehringer_2

[sabretooth]

2 hours ago, 1984Echoes said:

Which already explodes Sabretooth's "projected reality" (my words) as PURE FANTASY.

Dark and dreary fantasy... but fantasy nonetheless...

The Chris era has been completely dreary, and thats no fault of mine.

What is fantasy is believing that a guy who has never supported even an average payroll (other than the one he inherited in 2017 and tore down/firesold immediately thereafter) will suddenly do so.

The best hope is that the collapse of the Bally Sports bottom line recently will force Chris to put a winning product on the field to make a reliable profit.

[chasfh]

2 hours ago, mtutiger said:

There are a lot of reasons to be concerned with Pizza Jr., but I would be surprised if the level of payroll was reduced much from where it currently sits.

The signings last offseason, inadequate as they were seen by the fans, wouldn't have happened otherwise.

I would bet the payroll will be right around what it was last year, maybe a touch more to cover Jeimer's seven Ms. I don't see them doing much more than one-year placeholder deals, perhaps even a two-year for a starter like Andrew Heaney, someone who can control the strike zone even though we'd be taking a chance on his health.

[theroundsquare]

3 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

I'm thinking the 40% is that it goes more like this season all over. A decent start - hits a few long balls in ST. Every body feeling happy.  Then the power will disappear but the average will be good and he'll hang just below 700 OPS with a decent OBP - a month, 2, maybe even 3, but then at some point everything is going to start to hurt again, the output will plummet,  and the only question will be how many months does it go on before the Tigers stop waiting for the Spring version of Miggy to return and make the needed move.

so a lot like this year. i dont remember what happened in ST tho

[chasfh]

3 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

The Chris era has been completely dreary, and thats no fault of mine.

What is fantasy is believing that a guy who has never supported even an average payroll (other than the one he inherited in 2017 and tore down/firesold immediately thereafter) will suddenly do so.

The best hope is that the collapse of the Bally Sports bottom line recently will force Chris to put a winning product on the field to make a reliable profit.

I with you on this. I wouldn't say it's impossible that he would ever spend big like leading teams do, but I also don't understand the position stipulating that since there's no evidence that he won't or wouldn't spend, that must mean he will spend, or probably will spend. Until he shows and proves, I'm not assuming that at all.

[mtutiger]

19 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I with you on this. I wouldn't say it's impossible that he would ever spend big like leading teams do, but I also don't understand the position stipulating that since there's no evidence that he won't or wouldn't spend, that must mean he will spend, or probably will spend. Until he shows and proves, I'm not assuming that at all.

Your initial post suggested that Chris I may want to be like the Rays, which I assume includes in terms of payroll. 

Until we see him spend like the Rays, not sure why anyone would be convinced that's a possibility. Particularly following an offseason where they did spend money (unlike the Rays, Pirates, Guardians, etc.)

That doesn't mean he'll spend like the Dodgers either, but they have a payroll that's falls in the mid range at the moment, slightly below the league average. I don't see that changing any time soon.

Edited November 1, 2022 by mtutiger

[Tenacious D]

Why argue this point now?  We’ll know within a few months time if ownership is interested in increasing payroll.

[mtutiger]

4 minutes ago, Tenacious D said:

Why argue this point now?  We’ll know within a few months time if ownership is interested in increasing payroll.

We also need to see what the new PBO does and how he approaches things. There's no doubt that when he was interviewed, discussions about payroll and resources came up. And he left a really good organization to take this job, which would suggest that he believes that he will have the resources he feels he needs to implement his vision, which one assumes involves building a club that can win a ring.

[chasfh]

7 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Your initial post suggested that Chris I may want to be like the Rays, which I assume includes in terms of payroll. 

Until we see him spend like the Rays, not sure why anyone would be convinced that's a possibility. Particularly following an offseason where they did spend money (unlike the Rays, Pirates, Guardians, etc.)

That doesn't mean he'll spend like the Dodgers either, but they have a payroll that's falls in the mid range at the moment, slightly below the league average. I don't see that changing any time soon.

I didn't "suggest" he may want to be like the Rays, as in that's what I believe. I said it's a distinct possibility, as in that's within the range of outcomes. Can you see the difference?

[chasfh]

9 minutes ago, Tenacious D said:

Why argue this point now?  We’ll know within a few months time if ownership is interested in increasing payroll.

Because people here want to argue this point now. That's what we do in this discussion forum.

[mtutiger]

5 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I didn't "suggest" he may want to be like the Rays, as in that's what I believe. I said it's a distinct possibility, as in that's within the range of outcomes. Can you see the difference?

I never indicated that you "believed" that would happen. 

Just saying that the "suggestion" or "distinct possibility" or what have you isn't something that is likely to happen imo. YMMV

Edited November 1, 2022 by mtutiger

[theroundsquare]

17 minutes ago, Tenacious D said:

Why argue this point now?  We’ll know within a few months time if ownership is interested in increasing payroll.

wtf else are we going to do

[Tigermojo]

Rumor was the Tigers had offered Correa the most money in the offseason. I think Illitch will spend when the right player is available.

[chasfh]

28 minutes ago, Tigermojo said:

Rumor was the Tigers had offered Correa the most money in the offseason. I think Illitch will spend when the right player is available.

The amount the Tigers offered was well below Correa's publicly-stated floor. He was never going to accept it, and I believe the Tigers knew he wouldn't accept it.

[chasfh]

48 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

I never indicated that you "believed" that would happen. 

Just saying that the "suggestion" or "distinct possibility" or what have you isn't something that is likely to happen imo. YMMV

 

Edited November 1, 2022 by chasfh

[gehringer_2]

all I would add on the debate about Chris Ilitch is the question of how much resource he is willing to commit pales in proportion to the question tof whether he has put management in place capable of winning with any resource level.  

Going all the way back to when Tom Monaghan bought the franchise from Fetzer, FO competence has always been a bigger road block than ownership resourcing.

Edited November 1, 2022 by gehringer_2