2022-23 Detroit Tigers Offseason Thread

[Tiger337]

27 minutes ago, Longgone said:

Relegation, to me, smacks of the mentality that the best way to manage is through fear and punishment, and I've just never subscribed to that, that is that worst way to manage any system.

There could be tiers of leagues all under the MLB umbrella.  The relgated teams go to the bottom tier, maybe 8 teams which will play each other most often.  They still can share in the revenue.  The only punishment is they wouldn't participate in the playoffs, but they weren't going to make it anyway.  

[Tiger337]

6 minutes ago, Longgone said:

I'm not sold on Haase as a regular catcher, I think his best role is as a utility guy.

I would agree that Haases is probably not a regular catcher on a first division team.  I see him more as a John Wockenfuss.  

[gehringer_2]

12 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

There could be tiers of leagues all under the MLB umbrella.

I think at the core, that is why it could never be done in a US league. An owner doesn't just buy a team, he buys the membership in the league. Given the structure of us pro team ownershiop,  would be an obvious tort to try to remove a team from the league the owner bought the rights to be in. Slam dunk court win. You'd have to start from scratch with a league that had a different, more limited set of ownership right plainly established.

What you might be able to do in US leagues is force an owner that won't try to win to sell their team. There is precedence for MLB forcing 'bad' owners to sell, but not purely over their team's performace. And of course a sold team might be a moved team and that's a whole 'nother headache for the league. The problem there is that most teams aren't going to care that much if there is some team out there not trying very hard to win, because that just makes it easier for them!

Edited December 22, 2022 by gehringer_2

[Longgone]

13 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

There could be tiers of leagues all under the MLB umbrella.  The relgated teams go to the bottom tier, maybe 8 teams which will play each other most often.  They still can share in the revenue.  The only punishment is they wouldn't participate in the playoffs, but they weren't going to make it anyway.  

That seems like a lot of machinations, when all they need to do is share media revenue.

[oblong]

Isn’t that what a luxury tax does?

[mtutiger]

24 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said:

crazy trying to predict what Mets will do. dumping McCann saved just a little bit of money. Are Escobar and and Carrasco really getting moved? dumping Ruf (3M) and Voglebach (just 1.5M) seem to be better choices. keeping EE, a SH who can play 2b and 3b and DH is better baseball choice IMO.

Baty is still Harris's best target; will cost a lot; some combo of Soto, Lange, Manning, Olson, Madden, Wentz

Taking on Ruf or Vogelbach would be more achievable without the $30 million dollar man on the roster, particularly Vogelbach, who would make a decent platoon partner with Tork

[Longgone]

3 minutes ago, oblong said:

Isn’t that what a luxury tax does?

Minimally

[gehringer_2]

14 minutes ago, oblong said:

Isn’t that what a luxury tax does?

Between the Lux tax and the fact that there is some media money in a national pot now, the bottom teams do get more support than they used to, but I'm curious if the revenue side even explains some of what we are seeing this season.

Do the Mets, as the weak sister in the NYC market, or the Rangers, really generate the income to cover what they are spending?  Or is it just that the general concentration of wealth trend over the last 30 yrs is making some ownerships so loaded that it doesn't bother them to subsidize their teams with non-baseball revenue? I would think the league would frown on that but books are easy to cook. Any way, don't know if that's what's happening but some of the money being thrown around makes me wonder.

Edited December 22, 2022 by gehringer_2

[chasfh]

On 12/21/2022 at 8:09 AM, alex said:

It seems maybe so - as that deal was not bank breaking. Maybe his BB/K ratios were not a top choice. If it is players that want to get better - and they then chose to come here is a selling point - that sounds more like a Edwin Rios type idea (which might be ok) or even GSanchez (Haase more 1B and OF). This team needs a middle of the order bat (maybe two).

Still think something will happen before too long. WMyers could be a decent fit. Not a first choice but at this time... JProfar could bat at the top of the order and is able to move around - but hard to believe either of these two will have to settle on a one yr deal.

I think Drury could have fit pretty well on the Tigers, defense notwithstanding, and I think the Tigers might have liked him for a year. But maybe not for two.

[chasfh]

20 hours ago, Tenacious D said:

given the number of years being thrown out, I suspect we will be out of the superstar free agency business until things come back down to earth.

Or until we are in a position to need one or two final pieces to seriously contend for a ring.

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, Tiger337 said:

There could be tiers of leagues all under the MLB umbrella.  The relgated teams go to the bottom tier, maybe 8 teams which will play each other most often.  They still can share in the revenue.  The only punishment is they wouldn't participate in the playoffs, but they weren't going to make it anyway.  

Another thing about the relegation system is that it creates a whole new degree of interest in bad teams trying to avoid relegation. Some European leagues have (or have had in the past) actual relegation playoffs that draw a low of fans and TV viewership.

There are a lot of downsides to the P/R setup, but interest in the fate of bad teams at the end of a season would be a new and intriguing add.

 

[RatkoVarda]

couple of names to consider in trades that no one asked for:
Baty - would cost a ton; long term piece hopefully

Madrigal - zero power, but may have bat to ball skills Harris wants

Josh Smith and Ezekiel Duran - blocked in Texas; Smith (LH) is wasted in LF

Victor Robles - just 25, elite RH CF defender w/2 years of control left, would pair nicely with Greene (transitioning to a corner) and Parker Meadows (in 2024)

Nolan Gorman - may K too much for Harris, but miscast as 2b

Oswaldo Cabrera (SH) - miscast as OF

Dominic Canzone - 3rd string LH 1b/OF in Arizona

Eguy Rasario - blocked in SD, but a RH bat

Vidal Brujan - over hyped prospect who has shown zero power/production in small samples; Metzler would have insights

[Tenacious D]

39 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said:

couple of names to consider in trades that no one asked for:
Baty - would cost a ton; long term piece hopefully

Madrigal - zero power, but may have bat to ball skills Harris wants

Josh Smith and Ezekiel Duran - blocked in Texas; Smith (LH) is wasted in LF

Victor Robles - just 25, elite RH CF defender w/2 years of control left, would pair nicely with Greene (transitioning to a corner) and Parker Meadows (in 2024)

Nolan Gorman - may K too much for Harris, but miscast as 2b

Oswaldo Cabrera (SH) - miscast as OF

Dominic Canzone - 3rd string LH 1b/OF in Arizona

Eguy Rasario - blocked in SD, but a RH bat

Vidal Brujan - over hyped prospect who has shown zero power/production in small samples; Metzler would have insights

Good list.  Once the Harris’ return from Bora Bora, I suspect he’ll start to focus on making more trades for players who are ready to step in.

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, Longgone said:

That seems like a lot of machinations, when all they need to do is share media revenue.

My concern is not parity, but rather too many teams in the playoffs!  I think expanded playoffs ruin the entire essence of a baseball season which I view as a marathon. I am not overly concerned with parity.  I like that there are good teams and bad teams.  I like dynasties and like when dynasty teams get defeated.  If every team has the same chance, it makes the season seem random.  I know others don't necessarily share that view.  

[Longgone]

8 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

My concern is not parity, but rather too many teams in the playoffs!  I think expanded playoffs ruin the entire essence of a baseball season which I view as a marathon. I am not overly concerned with parity.  I like that there are good teams and bad teams.  I like dynasties and like when dynasty teams get defeated.  If every team has the same chance, it makes the season seem random.  I know others don't necessarily share that view.  

You can limit the number of playoff teams without relegation, it adds nothing. I see no correlation.

[Longgone]

27 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

My concern is not parity, but rather too many teams in the playoffs!  I think expanded playoffs ruin the entire essence of a baseball season which I view as a marathon. I am not overly concerned with parity.  I like that there are good teams and bad teams.  I like dynasties and like when dynasty teams get defeated.  If every team has the same chance, it makes the season seem random.  I know others don't necessarily share that view.  

You would still have dynasties, but based on talent and acumen, pure competition, not disproportionate resource advantages.

Edited December 22, 2022 by Longgone

[gehringer_2]

10 minutes ago, Longgone said:

You can limit the number of playoff teams without relegation, it adds nothing. I see no correlation.

US pro sports are set up for roughly uniform geographic distribution. You identify the centers for marketing a sport and you put a team there. That is the fundamental imperative to the way that US sports are set up that means no team will ever be 'relegated' out of the 'majors' because it immediately removes the overall sport's access to that market. Everything regarding playoffs, parity, or an any other team competitive consideration sits on an importance tier that is a full step lower.

Edited December 22, 2022 by gehringer_2

[Tiger337]

21 minutes ago, Longgone said:

You can limit the number of playoff teams without relegation, it adds nothing. I see no correlation.

As Chasfh stated, the teams in the bottom tier would battle for the right to be re-instated in to the big league.  I think that would add to fan interest of losing teams. 

[Toddwert]

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2022/12/reds-sign-wil-myers-to-one-year-deal.html

Wil Myers is off the board

[chasfh]

There will be no promotion and relegation.

However—if there could be—the major leagues could be dramatically expanded, to maybe 40 or more teams. There could be four levels of ten, or five levels of eight. With that number of teams, could be tables instead of divisions, with a truly balanced schedule.

One downside of this system is that, if done as in Europe, you might never see the best teams in baseball come to town if you are in a lower division. Well, how about this:

Adopt a point system, three points for a win against your own division. Play at least one series against every team in every other division. If you beat a team above your division you get an extra point per level for each of those wins added to your season total. Beat a team below your division, you get one fewer point per level.

So, say it’s a five-level system of eight teams each. You’re in level three. You get three pints for a win against your level. If you beat a level one (Premier League?) team, you get five points; level two, four; level four, two, and level five, one point.

This way, playing a team from another division would not be a “friendly”, sort of like in English football, but there would be a practical concession to the different levels of team ability.

I love noodling this kind of stuff. 

[Longgone]

18 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

As Chasfh stated, the teams in the bottom tier would battle for the right to be re-instated in to the big league.  I think that would add to fan interest of losing teams. 

That's a non sequitur

[chasfh]

How’s this for Exhibit A as to how the market has changed: 

A guy who was let go after a below-replacement-level year gets two years, the second one being his option. 

[Tiger337]

4 minutes ago, Longgone said:

That's a non sequitur

No, it's not.  Teams that battle for the playoffs do the same thing.  They try to achieve the best record so the can advance.  

Edited December 22, 2022 by Tiger337

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, RatkoVarda said:

Madrigal - zero power, but may have bat to ball skills Harris wants

 

Madigal is interesting. He's a limited player but he does have good on-base skill. I think one or two guys like Madrigal who are tough outs, even if they don't do much OPS damage, can have more value to a team like Det that doesn't have enough tough outs, than they may have to their current team or the rest of the league. 

[Tenacious D]

16 minutes ago, Toddwert said:

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2022/12/reds-sign-wil-myers-to-one-year-deal.html

Wil Myers is off the board

Think we need someone like him, but would prefer a LH bat as possible platoon/fill-in for Tork and/or Miggy.  Hosmer and Belt are possibilities.