Tiger337 Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 3 minutes ago, Shinzaki said: As much as our emotions want us to see our new GM clean house and make huge moves from day one...I don't think it's an entirely reasonable expectation. We've lived this shiza show for years...Harris just got here. He needs time to take it all in before nuking it I agree it's hard for him to do much especially with so many foundation pitchers having health problems. That is part of the reason I am giving him time. It's just that I remember when Randy Smith was the whiz kid that was going to change everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Shinzaki said: As much as our emotions want us to see our new GM clean house and make huge moves from day one...I don't think it's an entirely reasonable expectation. We've lived this shiza show for years...Harris just got here. He needs time to take it all in before nuking it Also it's a question of people's expectations going in - one person in the comments section of Cody's article said that while they didn't expect Correa, they expected them to be in on Cody Bellinger, Michael Brantley, Andrew Benintendi, etc. Despite the fact that Harris has continually stated that the need in the OF is for someone who bats right handed. Or JD Martinez who only makes sense in a world where Miguel Cabrera is put out to pasture. The Tigers need bats, but the need doesn't mean they should be taking a scattershot approach and just signing anyone and everyone on the market - they still need to be discerning within those needs, focusing not just on production but who also makes sense based on platoon splits and the like. The other part is that, again, the offseason isn't over yet. People hate hearing it, but there is still time left and it's hard to prejudge without knowing what it will look like when the cake comes out of the oven. Edited January 4, 2023 by mtutiger 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RatkoVarda Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 (edited) how could Harris look at this historically bad offense and decide to add nobody, but Ibanez, Nevin and Feliciano (all of whom may lose their 40-man spot in February or tomorrow) and Malloy in the minors? there is nothing to assess with Miggy and Schoop - they are irrelevant to 2024. there is nothing to assess with Clemens and Short - they are garbage. there are literally thousands (!) of plate appearances available for Rogers, Haase, Tork, Kreidler, Lipcuis, Perez, Greene, Baddoo, Carpenter, Meadows and Malloy - half of whom are going to spend months at Toledo anyhow. Acquiring 2 decent position players would not change that. I'll say again - and I guess for the last time - if Avila singed Boyd, Lorenzen, released some detritus, and made yet another Rule 5 pick and said, we are good to go, the pitchforks and torches would be out en masse, and rightly so. Edited January 4, 2023 by RatkoVarda 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RatkoVarda Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 21 minutes ago, mtutiger said: The Tigers need bats, but the need doesn't mean they should be taking a scattershot approach and just signing anyone and everyone on the market Harris choose Option 3 - no one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 Just now, RatkoVarda said: Harris choose Option 3 - no one. 22 minutes ago, mtutiger said: The other part is that, again, the offseason isn't over yet. People hate hearing it, but there is still time left and it's hard to prejudge without knowing what it will look like when the cake comes out of the oven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenacious D Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 (edited) I’m unhappy with the offseason, but the truth is we have few tradable assets and ran into an unfriendly free agency cycle, with teams willing to spend ridiculous money. Hard to compete with a winning team and/or more desirable location. We really don’t know how aggressive we tried to be in free agency, given that Harris seems to keep things close. I’d be surprised to learn that Harris and Co were not being aggressive or innovative, but are instead victims of the current circumstances. It sucks, but I’ll keep my pitchfork in the shed. Edited January 4, 2023 by Tenacious D 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toddwert Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 Just now, mtutiger said: ok whose available thats going to matter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Toddwert said: ok whose available thats going to matter? Trey Mancini, AJ Pollock, Andrew McCutchen, Brian Anderson, Edwin Rios, quite a few others. Guys like that matter to me if they bring them in on short term deals to fill holes and make this team more watchable. But then again, I didn't come into this offseason assuming that the Tigers would be among the most active teams in free agency either. Chris McCosky is a company man, but a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while. Improvement on this team is going to largely come from the pieces it has assembled, not from a collection of sub-2 WAR free agents. Edited January 4, 2023 by mtutiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 3 minutes ago, Tenacious D said: We really don’t know how aggressive we tried to be in free agency, given that Harris seems to keep things close. This is the other part.... maybe we got accustomed to Al shooting his mouth off at press conferences, but it's probably a good thing that the PBO isn't out there broadcasting a bunch of information to the public. Not to mention that fans likely use guys like JP Morosi and Jon Heyman to judge how active teams are, which in and of itself is kinda problematic since a lot of what gets repeated there often gets repeated for a reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeyAbbott Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 14 hours ago, Motor City Sonics said: Major League is on. Maybe the 2023 Tigers are the 35 year remake of that and AJ Hinch can lead them to victory, as soon as he's done talking to that fella about a set of whitewalls. Don't we need a pitcher from the California Penal League? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 I'm fine with the org not putting lipstick on a pig. We don't need a press conference with Fernando Vina and Jason Johnson circa 2004 telling us things will get better. Those are the types of things available to him at this point so why bother? Last year they did the big splash with Baez and now everyone wants him gone. Do fans learn nothing? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 29 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said: I'll say again - and I guess for the last time - if Avila singed Boyd, Lorenzen, released some detritus, and made yet another Rule 5 pick and said, we are good to go, the pitchforks and torches would be out en masse, and rightly so. I would understand pitchforks and torches 2-3 years in, not 3 months in. And not coming off the firing of a GM who, almost everyone seems to have accepted, helped run this franchise into the ditch. IOW, Avila and Harris are kinda apples and oranges at this stage, hence why nobody is sharpening their pitchforks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 (edited) 21 minutes ago, oblong said: I'm fine with the org not putting lipstick on a pig. We don't need a press conference with Fernando Vina and Jason Johnson circa 2004 telling us things will get better. Those are the types of things available to him at this point so why bother? Last year they did the big splash with Baez and now everyone wants him gone. Do fans learn nothing? As wistful as people are about the DD era (and there's a lot of reason to be), people should go back and look at that first year after he took over. The "you try and trade them" first year. And it took four years to get out of that mess. I don't think the org is in that bad of shape in it's current form but this organization faces a lot of challenges right now with injured young pitching and lack of organizational depth that negatively impacts their ability to compete. That isn't going to be solved in one offseason, and it wouldn't have been solved by Brandon Drury or Wil Myers. Edited January 4, 2023 by mtutiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted January 4, 2023 Author Share Posted January 4, 2023 I agree with basically everyone here that the Tigers should not have been an active competitive player for free agents, of which I think of as two basic types: impact free agents requiring many years and dollars, and stopgap free agents who can be used to plug a hole in the short term and perhaps be flippable at the deadline. Good or great teams play in the impact sandbox, which is not us yet; and mediocre to bad ... or rebuilding ... teams play in the stopgap sandbox, which is us at the moment. I believe we fully expected to pick up one or two stopgap position players on the market, the way we picked up two stopgap starting pitchers. But, probably because of the new CBA, the market unexpectedly flipped over on top of us, the proof of which is Tucker Barnhart, coming off the worst season of his career, getting two guaranteed years from a mediocre team that can still challenge for its weak division. I think that's really the crux of the biscuit: the years. We didn't want to sign stopgap free agents for more than one year. We did that with Jonathan Schoop (which was an unforced error, for sure), and look how that's working out for us. This front office didn't want even two-year guys, apparently, or else couldn't make one-year deals work versus other teams. Every position player with a projected WAR of 1.0 or better who signed a one-year deal did so with a team with pretension to contention, with one exception: Jeimer Candelario. As mtu has pointed out, there's time left, although the pickings are getting slim. Given the likely perception of the state of our franchise, we may have to play chicken and pick up whoever is left who doesn't have a job in mid-March, or, go with what we have and concentrate mainly on rebuilding the foundation of the house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edman85 Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 (edited) Steamer is the only somewhat decent projection system that's been released... I gathered some projected war600. That's WAR over 600 PA, so there's some potential issues with some minor league players beyond trying to extrapolate minor league numbers. Projecting for 50 PA, then multiplying everything by 12, may not be accurate. Anyways, below are players I had at 2B, 3B, or SS who are either free agents, on the Tigers roster (major or minor league), or not currently in line to start for their team and out of options. Andre Lipcius 2.6 Orlando Arcia 2.4 ATL Corey Joyce 2.3 Paul DeJong 2.3 STL Elvis Andrus 2.2 Isiah Kiner-Falefa 2.2 NYY Miguel Rojas 2.2 MIA Wenceel Perez 2.1 Vidal Brujan 2.1 TBR Ryan Kreidler 2 Javier Baez 2 Jose Iglesias 1.9 Max Moroff 1.8 Vimael Machin 1.8 John Valente 1.8 Zach McKinstry 1.8 CHC Elehuris Montero 1.8 COL Edmundo Sosa 1.8 PHI Yairo Munoz 1.7 Danny Pinero 1.7 Josh Morgan 1.7 Brian Anderson 1.7 Jason Vosler 1.7 Andrew Navigato 1.7 Mauricio Dubon 1.7 SFG David Bote 1.7 CHC Jose Rondon 1.6 Didi Gregorius 1.6 Andy Ibanez 1.6 Tyler Nevin 1.6 Jorge Mateo 1.6 BAL Yu Chang 1.5 Jonathan Schoop 1.5 Zack Short 1.5 Gio Urshela 1.5 LAA Luis Aviles Jr. 1.4 Zach Remillard 1.4 Justyn-Henry Malloy 1.4 Jonathan Villar 1.3 Freddy Galvis 1.3 Jose Rojas 1.3 Kody Clemens 1.3 Jermaine Placios 1.3 Brendon Davis 1.3 Josh VanMeter 1.2 C.J. Chatham 1.2 David MacKinnon 1.2 Tommy La Stella 1.2 Eduardo Escobar 1.2 NYM Ildemaro Vargas 1.2 WAS Andrelton Simmons 1.1 Ray-Patrick Didder 1.1 David Masters 1.1 Arquimedes Gamboa 1.1 Sheldon Neuse 1.1 Hanser Alberto 1 Cesar Hernandez 1 Rougned Odor 1 Wilfedro Tovar 1 Peter Maris 1 Jake Palomaki 1 Miguelangel Sierra 1 Gage Workman 1 Miguel Andujar 1 PIT Edited January 4, 2023 by Edman85 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 1 hour ago, Tiger337 said: I wasn't referring to you in particular in my post. I have also suggested that deadening the ball would solve some of the problems people talk about. I also agree that baseball wants home runs more than they want to solve problems with the game. enforcing the pitch clock will go a lot farher in "solving" the games' problems than messing with the ball will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 (edited) 16 minutes ago, chasfh said: I agree with basically everyone here that.... I get all this Chash. And I have no problem with them not chasing any of the 9 figure deals. But what I would argue on the other hand is that there is some obligation to put a better product in the field in the interim while you do all the requried foundation work. If that means paying a guy for two years instead of one, to me that is not adequate justification for running a terrible team out there again. For example, sure the Barnhardt deal is an overpay, but in the overall scheme of a major league baseball team the extra years being given out are not the kind of money that that is going to impact the org's ability to do anything else it wants to. Edited January 4, 2023 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenacious D Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 I do think Lipcius makes a contribution at some point. His bat profile is spot on with new organizational philosophy and they would not have protected him on the 40-man if they didn’t believe he could be a contributor next season. He might ultimately be a very useful utility player, but could also be a decent stopgap at 3B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenacious D Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 Just now, gehringer_2 said: I get all this Chash. And I have no problem with them not chasing any of the 9 figure deals. But what I would argue on the other hand is that there is some obligation to put a better product in the field in the interim while you do all the requried foundation work. If that means paying a guy for two years instead of one, to me that is not adequate justification for running a terrible team out there again. For example, sure the Barnhardt deal is an overpay, but in the overall scheme of a major league baseball team the extra years being given out are not the kind of money that that is going to impact the org's ability to do anything else it wants to. Which specific free agents would you have applied that philosophy to? For me, I wanted Haniger, but even his modest contract (by current standards), is a risk given his recent injury history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 Just now, gehringer_2 said: I get all this Chash. And I have no problem with them not chasing any of the 9 figure deals. But what I would argue on the other hand is that there is some obligation to put a better product in the field in the interim while you do all the requried foundation work. If that means paying a guy for two years instead of one, to me that is not adequate justification for running a terrible team out there again. For example, sure the Barnhardt deal is an overpay, but in the overall scheme of a major league baseball team the extra years being given out are not the kind of money that that is going to impact the org's ability to do anything else it wants to. I agree... but in the larger discussion, there's this implication that seems to exist among some of the fanbase that: Scott Harris is just sitting back playing tiddlywinks versus actually working to try to bring some guys in Scott Harris is being knee-capped by Chris Ilitch, who must think giving $17 million to Brandon Drury (after handing out $200 million dollars + worth of contracts last offseason) is too much And people appear to take the lack of success on the market + the lack of rumors by the JP Morosi and Jon Heyman types as proof that one or both of these things are happening. I get that fans are inclined to do it, but not all of us are just going to accept that lack of discourse from the front office and/or the lack of rumors surrounding the Tigers and/or lack of actual signings means that nothing is happening behind the scenes or that they aren't trying to get better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 7 minutes ago, Tenacious D said: Which specific free agents would you have applied that philosophy to? For me, I wanted Haniger, but even his modest contract (by current standards), is a risk given his recent injury history. Brian Anderson is still out there I think - I would hope they at least kick the tires there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenacious D Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 (edited) 29 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: Brian Anderson is still out there I think - I would hope they at least kick the tires there. Is he really an upgrade over what we can put out there? I’d rather the AB’s go to Kreidler or Lipcius. However, I still think we should move Schoop to 3B and sign someone like LaStella to be in the mix at 2B. Edited January 4, 2023 by Tenacious D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 (edited) 53 minutes ago, buddha said: enforcing the pitch clock will go a lot farher in "solving" the games' problems than messing with the ball will. I don't know if it will go a lot farther, but I think it's going to help a lot for two reasons: (1) It will speed up the pace of play (2) It will allow less time for pitchers to rest between pitches which I think will affect them significantly and might even cut down on the strikeouts a bit. Unrelated, but I don't think banning the shift really addresses any real problems. Edited January 4, 2023 by Tiger337 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Tenacious D said: Is he really an upgrade over what we can put out there? I’d rather the AB’s go to Kreidler or Lipcius. However, I still think we should move Schoop to 3B and sign someone like LaStella to be in the mix at 2B. We don't know, but that's the kind of thing I am OK with. Sure I want the team to play the kids, but also want them to have the option to pull them back when they are falling on their faces with enough major depth to keep a watchable team on the field. 90% of guys fail at the MLB level, we have to accept that. But that doesn't mean you don't give them their shot. Other than with Tork, the old regime seemed to be stuck on the wrong side of that equation - not moving guys through the system faster while over playing guys that had been around a long time and were only replacement level anyway. Edited January 4, 2023 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 30 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: I don't know if it will go a lot farther, but I think it's going to help a lot for two reasons: (1) It will speed up the pace of play (2) It will allow less time for pitchers to rest between pitches which I think will affect them significantly and might even cut down on the strikeouts a bit. Unrelated, but I don't think banning the shift really addresses any real problems. im ambivalent on the shift. i dont like to see it, but part of me thinks that its SO EASY to beat and they STILL keep pulling the ball into it every time. let them suffer if they cant make changes to counter the defensive counters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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