2022-23 Detroit Tigers Offseason Thread

[Longgone]

16 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Trayce Thompson earned a shot to play in Detroit, instead was shipped off to LA where he put up two wins in less than half a season with a .268/.364/.537 line, consistent with how he did in Toledo, and we got nothing out of it. It's comical how some people think that's a big nothing.

He's a 31 yo journeyman who outpunched his weight for half a season. It happens. He had little value then and he has little value now.

[gehringer_2]

35 minutes ago, Longgone said:

He's a 31 yo journeyman who outpunched his weight for half a season. It happens. He had little value then and he has little value now.

OTOH - people who are looking for short term help at the deadline may not care about a guy's long term outlook if he's on a hot streak. He may have indeed have netted nothing, but there was an opportunity cost to not even trying to find out. The argument has been fairly made that there is opportunity cost if you don't give Grossman a chance to build his trade value - so it comes down to which player was more likely to have done what you needed him to do. For those of us who thought Robbie was toast, trying to shop him seemed more like wishful thinking.

More generally, if you make enough incremental moves you might eventually find yourself a player or two ahead of the game down the road. This was always one of my complaints about Dombrowski - he couldn't be bothered with small roster value building moves - he was all home run trades and big FA signings. But when that runs out of gas you crash hard and wish you had some residual value built up from making those small building block moves. Harris working the waiver wires to try to leverage up something is encouraging in that direction.

Edited January 27, 2023 by gehringer_2

[mtutiger]

2 hours ago, Longgone said:

Trayce Thompson had a long track record, and was not considered to be anything more than a fringe player by anyone. The Dodgers acquired him basically as a temporary bandaid who ended up outplaying that role. Grossman was coming off a very solid year, and like most of the team went into an inexplicable funk. It was not unreasonable to think he could play his way out of it.

I swear you guys obsess about the goofiest stuff.

Not even talking about Grossman... note in the post you quoted that there was a period when Robbie was injured when Trayce Thompson, fringey as he is, probably would have been better than running Willi Castro out there to misjudge fly balls in CF.

But hey, YMMV. This is a message board... it'd be kinda boring if we just uncritically agreed with everything the team did last year.

Edited January 27, 2023 by mtutiger

[casimir]

8 hours ago, chasfh said:

Trayce Thompson earned a shot to play in Detroit, instead was shipped off to LA where he put up two wins in less than half a season with a .268/.364/.537 line, consistent with how he did in Toledo, and we got nothing out of it. It's comical how some people think that's a big nothing.

Sure, anyone that saw that season coming is completely full of crap.

But, hey, at least the Tigers got cash for him.  The Padres dumped him for absolutely nothing in May.

[casimir]

7 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

OTOH - people who are looking for short term help at the deadline may not care about a guy's long term outlook if he's on a hot streak. He may have indeed have netted nothing, but there was an opportunity cost to not even trying to find out. The argument has been fairly made that there is opportunity cost if you don't give Grossman a chance to build his trade value - so it comes down to which player was more likely to have done what you needed him to do. For those of us who thought Robbie was toast, trying to shop him seemed more like wishful thinking.

More generally, if you make enough incremental moves you might eventually find yourself a player or two ahead of the game down the road. This was always one of my complaints about Dombrowski - he couldn't be bothered with small roster value building moves - he was all home run trades and big FA signings. But when that runs out of gas you crash hard and wish you had some residual value built up from making those small building block moves. Harris working the waiver wires to try to leverage up something is encouraging in that direction.

But there's also a pretty hefty difference in the resumes of Grossman and Thompson.  The situation maybe shouldn't be one or the other, but if the Tigers are going to try to build up the trade value of one of the two, which one has the better track record that might more reliably forecast a couple of months of production?

And as far as hot AAA lines go, hey, great, a 25 game heater in Toledo for a 31 year old journeyman OF.  We really expect that to be flipped for something of value?  That doesn't pass the sniff test.

[alex]

9 hours ago, Longgone said:

He's a 31 yo journeyman who outpunched his weight for half a season. It happens. He had little value then and he has little value now.

That is true, such things do happen for half a season (ala Orange Crush aka CShelton and many more). I do think they thought about it and felt it was worth the gamble to let RGrossman try to figure it out and 'maybe' increase his trade value. A.J. likes Robbie as well. I also think Thompson probably had a 'opt out' as Edman85 here mentioned.

With said Thompson is a decent all around athlete (hence some CF last year on a very good team). He has power. However, he has not quite put it together consistently in the big leagues but has shown periodic flashes and hence not just a 'one time wonder' fallen out of the Majors (like so many others). This suggests to some people that he does have some ability to adjust.

The Dodgers have liked him for awhile and saw something again last year and they re-acquired him (a good move for the WS contending team) AND they brought him back for '23 at 1.4M (I know, nothing for L.A.).

All in all it would seem he has been a decent platoon player and the LAD have liked him so that says something.

[mtutiger]

I dont know why this keeps getting framed into "Thompson vs. Grossman" when the most obvious time for Thompson to have been called up was when Grossman was on the IL and the 26 man roster had a deficit of actual outfielders.

Thompson's track record is thin, but as Alex suggests, he is a decent athlete and can actually play the outfield. That was preferable to running Willi Castro out into CF and RF night after night.

But again, others mileage may vary... 

Edited January 27, 2023 by mtutiger

[mtutiger]

Let's frame it another way... Thompson vs. Derek Hill (who actually was on the active roster in early June)

Do people think it's crazy to have prefer Thompson over Hill too?

[Longgone]

21 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Let's frame it another way... Thompson vs. Derek Hill (who actually was on the active roster in early June)

Do people think it's crazy to have prefer Thompson over Hill too?

Yes, but it’s all picking retro nits.

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, casimir said:

Sure, anyone that saw that season coming is completely full of crap.

But, hey, at least the Tigers got cash for him.  The Padres dumped him for absolutely nothing in May.

Of course, and anyone who saw that Thompson could not have possibly done anything for us because he's a 31 year old OF with a career WAR through that date of 0 and OPS+ of around 95 is equally full of crap.

He was definitely worth a try, a literal no risk move since the cost of trying him would have been essentially nothing, with a potential payout of at least some decent depth pieces. It could have been as close to getting something for nothing as anyone could get.

I don't understand why you're fighting so hard against that idea.

[mtutiger]

8 minutes ago, Longgone said:

Yes, but it’s all picking retro nits.

I said it at the time, so no, it's not a "retro nit" for some of us

[microline133]

One other thing that's not really being considered here...and it is relevant to this specific player/discussion.

Higher end minor league free agents are often pretty particular about where they sign....sometimes it centers on money, others it's on potential for big league opportunity, and still others it is the trajectory or position of the org. In many cases, quality minor league free agents like Thompson will sign a deal with an opt out to see if they get their shot somewhere (like Detroit) but then have the option of looking for another opportunity. It is not just possible, but reality, to factor in Thompson not wanting to be called up by the Tigers. These things happen all the time. He simply wanted his opt out to come and be able to look for another opportunity....the Tigers were receptive (as they should be) and decided to honor his request, but instead of just letting that date pass, worked with him to find a destination where they could get "something" instead of nothing. While the player has minimal, if any, leverage in these situations, it is customary for the teams to play nice in situations like this, particularly when they clearly aren't going anywhere and the player has no real bearing on their future.

[mtutiger]

8 minutes ago, chasfh said:

He was definitely worth a try, a literal no risk move since the cost of trying him would have been essentially nothing, with a potential payout of at least some decent depth pieces. It could have been as close to getting something for nothing as anyone could get.

Just in the bigger picture, given how historically bad the hitting was last year and how often they were short in particular areas because of injuries, it seems unforgivable to me that they did little by way of transactions or roster churn. 

As you suggest, Thompson may have been something or nothing, but in that situation, running the same thing out there night after night and expecting different results is insanity.

The good news is the architect of last year's team is gone and his replacement seems like he will more nimble in terms of moving guys around (or out) as circumstances arise.

[mtutiger]

3 minutes ago, microline133 said:

One other thing that's not really being considered here...and it is relevant to this specific player/discussion.

Higher end minor league free agents are often pretty particular about where they sign....sometimes it centers on money, others it's on potential for big league opportunity, and still others it is the trajectory or position of the org. In many cases, quality minor league free agents like Thompson will sign a deal with an opt out to see if they get their shot somewhere (like Detroit) but then have the option of looking for another opportunity. It is not just possible, but reality, to factor in Thompson not wanting to be called up by the Tigers. These things happen all the time. He simply wanted his opt out to come and be able to look for another opportunity....the Tigers were receptive (as they should be) and decided to honor his request, but instead of just letting that date pass, worked with him to find a destination where they could get "something" instead of nothing. While the player has minimal, if any, leverage in these situations, it is customary for the teams to play nice in situations like this, particularly when they clearly aren't going anywhere and the player has no real bearing on their future.

Good information, thanks... seems like a possibility

[microline133]

It's not just a possibility, it's reality.

[Longgone]

11 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

I said it at the time, so no, it's not a "retro nit" for some of us

If they had brought him up and played him, would they have kept him on the 40 prior to the Rule 5? Hell no. If LA dfa’d him would you want to claim him? Hell no. Would he be any valuable part to the Tigers future fortunes? No.

Is he a journeyman who may produce some value at certain times? Sure, but you can say that about a thousand other guys.

 

[mtutiger]

Just now, Longgone said:

If they had brought him up and played him, would they have kept him on the 40 prior to the Rule 5? Hell no. If LA dfa’d him would you want to claim him? Hell no. Would he be any valuable part to the Tigers future fortunes? No.

Same as Derek Hill. Who last I checked was no longer on the 40 prior to the Rule 5, who I wouldn't want to claim if was available, and is not a part of the Tigers future fortunes.

Under that criteria, the Castrei and Reyes also fit the bill as well.

[mtutiger]

7 minutes ago, microline133 said:

It's not just a possibility, it's reality.

Possibility in regards to Thompson, reality insofar that it happens. I get it.

[microline133]

No, reality as it happened with Thompson. My understanding is his camp was aware of the Dodgers' interest, he had an interest in playing there (close to home, MLB playing time for a contender, etc.), and his camp communicated that desire to the Tigers. They obliged and rather than just letting his opt out pass, got a few bucks for him. 

[chasfh]

15 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

As you suggest, Thompson may have been something or nothing, but in that situation, running the same thing out there night after night and expecting different results is insanity.

Of course I agree with that idea, but even though he was another player of a certain type, he was still a different player who was raking in an unusual way and thus at least worth a try. Just slotting him into the lineup for a look-see would not have been the same thing over and over again.

EDIT: I replied with this before reading Microline’s input. In this specific case his reply makes total sense, but absent those specifics, in general, letting him go only because he wasn’t great in prior years, without trying him for a possible good flip, makes no sense to me.
 

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by chasfh

[mtutiger]

Just now, microline133 said:

No, reality as it happened with Thompson. My understanding is his camp was aware of the Dodgers' interest, he had an interest in playing there (close to home, MLB playing time for a contender, etc.), and his camp communicated that desire to the Tigers. They obliged and rather than just letting his opt out pass, got a few bucks for him. 

OK

[mtutiger]

5 minutes ago, chasfh said:

EDIT: I replied with this before reading Microline’s input. In this specific case his reply makes total sense, but absent those specifics, in general, letting him go only because he wasn’t great in prior years, without trying him for a possible good flip, makes no sense to me.

Seconded

[gehringer_2]

38 minutes ago, microline133 said:

One other thing that's not really being considered here...and it is relevant to this specific player/discussion.

Higher end minor league free agents are often pretty particular about where they sign....sometimes it centers on money, others it's on potential for big league opportunity, and still others it is the trajectory or position of the org. In many cases, quality minor league free agents like Thompson will sign a deal with an opt out to see if they get their shot somewhere (like Detroit) but then have the option of looking for another opportunity. It is not just possible, but reality, to factor in Thompson not wanting to be called up by the Tigers. These things happen all the time. He simply wanted his opt out to come and be able to look for another opportunity....the Tigers were receptive (as they should be) and decided to honor his request, but instead of just letting that date pass, worked with him to find a destination where they could get "something" instead of nothing. While the player has minimal, if any, leverage in these situations, it is customary for the teams to play nice in situations like this, particularly when they clearly aren't going anywhere and the player has no real bearing on their future.

I understand everything about the logic presented here except why a call up would stil wouldn't be in his interest while all the same stuff to get him moved to somewhere else is going on in the background? If only for the better meal money and higher class transportation. The guy who hasn't been able to stay in the majors is worried about getting 'trapped' in the majors because he performs too well on a team he doesn't prefer? I'll certainly take your word for it but it doesn't sound like very good career advice to follow!  😂

Edited January 27, 2023 by gehringer_2

[chasfh]

17 minutes ago, microline133 said:

No, reality as it happened with Thompson. My understanding is his camp was aware of the Dodgers' interest, he had an interest in playing there (close to home, MLB playing time for a contender, etc.), and his camp communicated that desire to the Tigers. They obliged and rather than just letting his opt out pass, got a few bucks for him. 

This closes the loop for me regarding the Thompson case. He didn't want to play for the Tigers because the Dodgers expressed interest, because really, during the Avila era, who would? Since that appears to eliminate every possibility except (a) do whatever deal you could with the Dodgers or (2) let Thompson's opt out date arrive so he could be sprung and sign with the Dodgers anyway, that reduces the Tigers' leverage to zero. Cash considerations became the best they could get in return. Do I have that straight?

Hypothetical: what if the Tigers tried to promote Thompson anyway, for who knows what reason? (It's a hypothetical, so the idea doesn't have to be defended with an actual reason.) Would Thompson have left the org because ain't no way he's stepping foot in the Comerica home team locker room no how? And if he were to accept such a promotion, would the opt out date clause expire and eliminate his ability to jump to the Dodgers at his discretion? I'm interested in the technicals of such a case, basically because I have never heard of this kind of situation before.

Two last questions: is there a technical difference between "cash considerations" and "cash"? And if you had to guess, how much in "considerations" do you think the Tigers might have received forThompson?

[mtutiger]

Even setting aside "who would want to play for the Tigers" and the Dodgers being a preferable place generally, Thompson also had a preexisting relationship with that organization and one of his best years as a professional playing for them.

I could see the appeal of holding out for a trade to the Dodgers was worth whatever risk came from it in his case.