2022-23 Detroit Tigers Offseason Thread

[1984Echoes]

2 hours ago, Tenacious D said:

are you really willing to fall on your sword for Candelario?  You might want to go back and look at last year's offensive and defensive contributions and revisit your position. I appreciate that Harris is looking to improve there, even though it's a pretty low bar.

I prefer to look back at 2021 for Candelario.

When he was good.

[1984Echoes]

2 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

TBF, we don't know what the internal reports were about Candelario. Their decision will either be justified or not depending on what he does next season

The Tigers DID offer him a 2023 contract (or were open to...) just at below his Arb number (unknown what the #/ offer was exactly...) and therefore Candy refused and we non-tendered...

[1984Echoes]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

I don't believe that's necessarily true as stated. I don't think that they believe his value is objectively less than seven million. I would counter that, if they believe he is better than a one-win player, then they know that level of production is worth seven million, at least.

But we also know that markets are about more than simply an objective measure of worth—it's also about the perception of the asset as a whole, and the perception of Jeimer is that he is damaged goods, in part because of last year's anomalous output, one who will accept less than what his expected production is objectively worth. It's why he's regarded as a buy-low bet with high upside potential, versus someone playing out a string who's got maybe one year of 140+ games left in him.

This I believe to be true...

They may have even believed he had the potential to get back to a 2 +/- Win player but didn't want to shoulder the burden of proof...

As evidenced by their offer, their non-tender, and the actual signing value of his Nats contract...

[chasfh]

13 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

The history is that different managements - different owners, have wildly varying opionions on what a clubhouse needs to look like. I would go so far to say that there are sports managements for whom being too *nice* a guy in the clubhouse could create a negative bias (I only want guys with fire in their belly!--etc) . So in general, it's a good point  that other factors beside the two objective ones of money and performance can go into roster decisions and that in the main, we will never see the effect of that other than in a few extreme cases where a player ends up in public trouble.

Right, although I also believe that Detroit beat writers are especially willing to cover up clubhouse drama for the sake of appearances, on behalf of the organization in general.

[1984Echoes]

1 hour ago, mtutiger said:

Maybe the Tigers also perceive Jeimer as damaged goods and value him accordingly as well?

If they believed he was damaged goods then why did they try to negotiate a 2023 contract with him?

You don't negotiate with damaged goods. You just walk away.

[Tiger337]

10 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

Man, Eflin was a guy I thought was worth targeting. Very underrated.

He is good if he can stay healthy.  His last two seasons have been cut short by knee injuries.  I don't know whether those were fluke injuries or whether he can be considered injury prone.  

[1984Echoes]

57 minutes ago, chasfh said:

... it's also possible that Jeimer is a clubhouse cancer. Maybe the other guys hate him, or he's a factionalizer, or he's uncoachable, or it's just an oil-and-water personality situation, and the organization decided they simply couldn't deal with him anymore... The one thing I am pretty sure of is that the Tigers simply didn't want Jeimer around anymore, at any price, including the one they offered him and knew he would never accept.

I don't agree with this.

If he's this bad, you don't even negotiate/ offer, you just non-tender.

What purpose does making an offer knowing he wouldn't accept it serve?

It's pointless IMO. Don't like the guy? Let him go. There's no reason to make farce offers/ negotiations...

[1984Echoes]

45 minutes ago, chasfh said:

If he puts up a four-win season on 2023, thus proving he can do so on a reasonably consistent basis, I bet someone will give him $50 million, if not four years.

It definitely won't be us.

I believe this has a high degree of likelihood.

I don't know about the 4 Wins... but even at 3.5-ish (close enough to the 4) he'll get that contract.

And it won't be us.

[1984Echoes]

54 minutes ago, SoCalTiger said:

Or maybe because he got cut its the wake up call that motivates him to straighten up ? Perhaps there is a bit of this in all "change of scenery " situations ? 

Also a high degree of likelihood IMO.

[Edman85]

8 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

He is good if he can stay healthy.  His last two seasons have been cut short by knee injuries.  I don't know whether those were fluke injuries or whether he can be considered injury prone.  

Good question... It derailed Dontrelle Willis back in the day.

[chasfh]

22 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

I don't agree with this.

If he's this bad, you don't even negotiate/ offer, you just non-tender.

What purpose does making an offer knowing he wouldn't accept it serve?

It's pointless IMO. Don't like the guy? Let him go. There's no reason to make farce offers/ negotiations...

Face-saving gesture? Help Jeimer in the marketplace as a favor? Or maybe because if they appear to be dismissing him with prejudice in a public way, that creates a story that media people might be tempted—or worse, obligated—to follow up on. Who knows? But the Tigers do look like good guys for making him even a half-assed offer, and Jeimer looks like a guy worth making an offer to, so the media can accept it all and move on from the story.

It is not dissimilar to the offer we made to Correa last year—what was the point of making Correa an offer that everyone knew he wouldn't accept? Maybe the reasons were different with Correa then than with Jeimer today, but point is, that kind of thing is done.

[Tenacious D]

so much consternation around a .217 BA, .633 OPS hitter.  Where is the outrage over losing the Castro Bros?  Victor Reyes?

[gehringer_2]

48 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

I don't agree with this.

If he's this bad, you don't even negotiate/ offer, you just non-tender.

I don't think it's always black and white. Every kind of pain has its price doesn't it? If management thinks a guy is just 'sort of' of problem, they may have a number where they will live with it.

[CMU97]

With Candy signing so quickly, and who he signed with, tells me a lot about what he was thinking.

If he really thought his market value was $7 million, he would have waited out the market longer. By signing a week after he hit the market, that tells me that he thought $5 million + was the most he was going to get, and he should take it.

He didn't take less money to go to a contender, we went to the worst team in baseball l ast year. 11 games worse than the Tigers, and I don't think anyone is saying Washington is going to contend this year. The Nationals for their part are hoping he can rebound and nab something nice at the trade deadline.

I'm sure Candy knows that is the Nationals  plan. And he is hoping to get enough playing time to show he still has it and someone else will want him. 

The Tigers are ahead of Washington as far as contending sooner, and have made massive changes this off season to head in the right direction.

All of this leads me to a couple of thoughts: 1) it was all about the money and when Detroit offered less, he just wasnt going to take it. 2) it wasn't about the best chance to win, it was all about getting out of Detroit.  I think Detroit did the right thing.

[Motor City Sonics]

4 minutes ago, CMU97 said:

With Candy signing so quickly, and who he signed with, tells me a lot about what he was thinking.

If he really thought his market value was $7 million, he would have waited out the market longer. By signing a week after he hit the market, that tells me that he thought $5 million + was the most he was going to get, and he should take it.

He didn't take less money to go to a contender, we went to the worst team in baseball l ast year. 11 games worse than the Tigers, and I don't think anyone is saying Washington is going to contend this year. The Nationals for their part are hoping he can rebound and nab something nice at the trade deadline.

I'm sure Candy knows that is the Nationals  plan. And he is hoping to get enough playing time to show he still has it and someone else will want him. 

The Tigers are ahead of Washington as far as contending sooner, and have made massive changes this off season to head in the right direction.

All of this leads me to a couple of thoughts: 1) it was all about the money and when Detroit offered less, he just wasnt going to take it. 2) it wasn't about the best chance to win, it was all about getting out of Detroit.  I think Detroit did the right thing.

maybe he just wanted to play in a place where the RF - CF fences aren't in another zip code and he figures 1/4 to 1/3 of those league-leading doubles would have been home runs most other parks...........

[CMU97]

11 minutes ago, Tenacious D said:

so much consternation around a .217 BA, .633 OPS hitter.  Where is the outrage over losing the Castro Bros?  Victor Reyes?

I'm sad to see Victor go,  because I liked him. But, he has proved who he is. A 4th outfielder who can play all three spots with ease and has a knack for getting the  big hit every now and  then. He also would have a good game and  then frustrate the  heck out of you with his bad approach in his next ten at bat's. I think he would be great playing 50 games a year with a couple hundred at bat's with the right team.

 

Same thing with Harlld, we know who he is. Good fit for someone, but not us.

 

I was surprised Willi was let go, but I don't think he will be hard to replace either.

Edited December 2, 2022 by CMU97
I hate my auto correct.

[Tiger337]

12 minutes ago, Tenacious D said:

so much consternation around a .217 BA, .633 OPS hitter.  Where is the outrage over losing the Castro Bros?  Victor Reyes?

I am not upset about losing him , but Candelario led the team in WAR and both '20 and '21.   

[Tenacious D]

I'm not the least bit upset losing any of the players we've moved on from.  what's Einstein's definition of insanity? doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

I wish we could have moved on from Schoop, as well.

Edited December 2, 2022 by Tenacious D

[Motor City Sonics]

1 minute ago, Tenacious D said:

I'm not the least bit upset losing any of the players we've moved on from.  what's Einstein's definition of insanity? doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

I wish we could have moved on from Schoop, as well.

Me neither, but I want them replaced with actual major league players who have an OBP over .320.  I don't think that's asking too much, do yoU? 

[Tenacious D]

1 minute ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Me neither, but I want them replaced with actual major league players who have an OBP over .320.  I don't think that's asking too much, do yoU? 

well, if we're to take Harris at his word around prioritizing players who have a good knowledge of the strike zone, I think that's what he will strive for.

[Shinzaki]

It is not safe to assume Candelario would have signed here for $5 million...it remains to be seen if they can sign a 3B for  the $7 million he would have cost us and what his or her (pronouns!!) production will be

[Motor City Sonics]

6 minutes ago, Tenacious D said:

well, if we're to take Harris at his word around prioritizing players who have a good knowledge of the strike zone, I think that's what he will strive for.

Even if they are one or two year bridge players like Justin Turner.   At least JT still gets on base at around .350

[Tenacious D]

as long as they can provide a .750 or above OPS for a season or two, I'm good.  

[Sports_Freak]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

I continue to maintain that if we're talking only about Jeimer's projected performance, absent any other market consideration, that is well worth the $7 million.

That said, I will shelve this hobby horse if Harris obtains a third baseman who is projected to do better than Jeimer, and I don't care at what price. I'm interested only in the production.

I agree 100%. Get me a player that produces and I'll be happy. I just don't want to see some AAA kid playing 3rd base with no offense and horrible defense.

[Sports_Freak]

19 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Me neither, but I want them replaced with actual major league players who have an OBP over .320.  I don't think that's asking too much, do yoU? 

Exactly my point in letting Candelario go. If they had an in-house replacement or if the FA market was full of 3rd basemen, I wouldn't care. If we end up having to trade a quality player for a 3rd baseman who gives us less production and costs more than 7 million dollars, I will say it was a horrible move.