Hongbit Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 (edited) I would really like him to take one of the top guards available with one of the 2nd rounders. Vaitai will most likely be a cap casualty. I expect Evan Brown to move on in FA and find a team that will give him a shot to compete for a starting center spot. They like Awosika a little bit but not sure enough to hand him a starting job. I can’t imagine Stenberg being back. Add the final piece in this draft and they really will have a shot to be the best OL in the league for many years. Edited January 11, 2023 by Hongbit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichiganCardinal Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 26 minutes ago, buddha said: stopping seattle once might have been an even bigger factor... Aubrey Pleasant was relying on those kicks being made as a part of his game plan. 😆 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 1 hour ago, Hongbit said: I would really like him to take one of the top guards available with one of the 2nd rounders. Vaitai will most likely be a cap casualty. I expect Evan Brown to move on in FA and find a team that will give him a shot to compete for a starting center spot. They like Awosika a little bit but not sure enough to hand him a starting job. I can’t imagine Stenberg being back. Add the final piece in this draft and they really will have a shot to be the best OL in the league for many years. I think they really love Vaitai. I believe he's got a lot of "dawg" in him. He's not old for an O'Lineman at 30 y.o. next year, and he's played damn well at 6' 6" 330 #'s at guard. If they spend a draft pick on an O-Lineman I think it's a depth pick with the 3rd, or 5th, or one of the 6ths. Instead of cap casualty, I think they extend him (and Goff) for a couple years and convert any salary to bonus money dropping the annual cap hit for savings... But I'm just guessing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichiganCardinal Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 4 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: I think they really love Vaitai. I believe he's got a lot of "dawg" in him. He's not old for an O'Lineman at 30 y.o. next year, and he's played damn well at 6' 6" 330 #'s at guard. If they spend a draft pick on an O-Lineman I think it's a depth pick with the 3rd, or 5th, or one of the 6ths. Instead of cap casualty, I think they extend him (and Goff) for a couple years and convert any salary to bonus money dropping the annual cap hit for savings... But I'm just guessing. Vaitai's health has to be a question mark as well. He had back surgery. You don't want to restructure his deal, watch Brown walk away, and then have him re-aggravate it in training camp and he's gone again. They got burned with a back injury with Levi. Didn't seem like much in college but just kept knocking him out when he went pro. Backs are tricky things, especially when you're an interior lineman being asked to run into a brick wall every play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 Right... Something to seriously consider of course... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 I would move on from Vaitai and address the position in free agency or the draft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hongbit Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 (edited) Vaitai was signed to play RT by Quinn. He’s played much better at RG when healthy but is still paid like a tackle. His current deal had him as the 10th highest paid G this season. That’s not good value for his play regardless of the intangibles. Brown was a huge liability filling in as backup guard. He was really good last year filling in at Center when Ragnow went down. That’s his better position. Edited January 11, 2023 by Hongbit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichiganCardinal Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 1 minute ago, Hongbit said: Vaitai was signed to play RT by Quinn. He’s played much better at RG when healthy but is still paid like a tackle. His current deal had him as the 10th highest paid G this season. That’s not good value for his play regardless of the intangibles. Brown was a huge liability filling in as backup guard. He was really good last year filling in at Center when Ragnow went down. That’s his better position. In fairness to Brown, he wasn't even supposed to be the backup guard until Tommy Kraemer went down in preseason too.... also with a back injury.... Let's just wrap the offensive line in bubble wrap until September. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Hongbit said: Vaitai was signed to play RT by Quinn. He’s played much better at RG when healthy but is still paid like a tackle. His current deal had him as the 10th highest paid G this season. That’s not good value for his play regardless of the intangibles. Brown was a huge liability filling in as backup guard. He was really good last year filling in at Center when Ragnow went down. That’s his better position. I wouldn't go too far to correct a value proposition if its relatively small potatoes in the overall scheme because things don't always end up working out they way you hope. Granted it was the old regime, but just as an example of where that kind of 'economy' can get you is that they let Riley Reiff walk in large part because they didn't want to pay him LT money to play RT, then ended up giving giving Wagner LT money to play RT anyway while Reiff continued to be the better player on another team. His medical would concern me more that the money, but you can only assume the Lions have a full picture on that. Edited January 11, 2023 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hongbit Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 7 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: I wouldn't go too far to correct a value proposition if its relatively small potatoes in the overall scheme because things don't always end up working out they way you hope. Granted it was the old regime, but just as an example of where that kind of 'economy' can get you is that they let Riley Reiff walk in large part because they didn't want to pay him LT money to play RT, then ended up giving giving Wagner LT money to play RT anyway while Reiff continued to be the better player on another team. It’s more than just a value proposition. He hasn’t shown the ability to stay healthy and while he played decent at guard, the reality is that he’s our worst starting lineman and that really isn’t a debate. Add to the fact that he’s overpaid and it makes sense to move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYLion Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 14 hours ago, Jason_R said: Elite level athletes, and dawgs. Is Bijan Robinson a dawg? He is certainly en elite athlete and a three-down player. But if he got that dawg in him he might be a Lion with pick 18. That's a good question. Holmes tends to look for two things in a player, elite athletic profile and culture fits (kneecap biters and such). I'm starting to think a trade down is possible. Think about it, there doesn't appear to be any standouts at the top of the draft outside of Anderson and Carter, and I'm not sure if these guys are good as they been billed to be, so there's motivation to trade out unless they REALLY like a guy, plus the Raiders and Panthers (QB needy teams) are directly behind them so assuming that Young and Stroud are gone and with this being a top 3 QB then drop off draft and only one of those top 3 left, you'd think that the Panthers or some other QB needy team would be motivated to jump the Raiders. I think there's a better chance of a trade down in this draft than the Okudah draft for two reasons. There were 2 QBs to choose from in that draft (Tua and Herbert) as opposed to one in this draft so the Dolphins had their pick of the two and the Chargers take the other one plus Tua had serious health concerns while I could see Levis being one of those guys because he's a physical freak that would kill it at the combine and raise his stock. Just some food for thought. I doubt it happens but I think it presents an interesting option for Holmes if he's not in love with any of the players at 6. Nice to have these options when you just came off of a breakthrough season and have tons of draft capital to play with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYLion Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 (edited) 22 hours ago, Hongbit said: 22 hours ago, RedRamage said: Here's why some people (myself included) are concerned about Goff long term: 1. He played noticeably worse in road games this year. Now that obviously wasn't only on him... there are other factors involved. But it's a pretty big split between home and away. 2. He doesn't have great arm strength. Many of his deep passes end up short of the receiver. That said you are right that he has a lot of good traits... protects the ball, great leader, accurate on short/medium routes, good decision making. I'm not saying that the Lions should use a high pick... in fact I am saying I don't want them to use a first round pick on a QB this year. But I think there are definitely areas where Goff is lacking. This is normal of course... it's pretty rare to have a player with zero negative areas. Those road stats are deceiving. Once the team got healthy and went on a roll, he had 5 TDs and 0 INTs in his last 5 road games including many big throws in clutch moments, in the cold btw. The stats are skewed by the Patriots and Cowboys games when the team was in a bad place and was ravaged by injury at the skilled positions. Edited January 11, 2023 by NYLion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 I'm all for a trade down. Give Holmes more picks. I used to be one of those who felt 5th and 6th round picks were expendable but then Holmes went and drafted Rodriguez and Houston in the 6th round so I even encourage picking up late round picks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 Depending on how the board plays out we could be in a prime spot for a trade down. If mocks are to be believed as of now there appears to be 4 1st round graded qbs so as long as 1 of them is still there at our pick there is a decent chance any team wanting a qb will be open to moving up to secure one of them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichiganCardinal Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 My intuition right now is that the trades will happen before us and at least three QBs go in the top five. Maybe even an NFL record four. I think two teams will decide a lot for us at #6: Chicago and Arizona. Chicago has basically already put their pick up for auction. I can think of seven or eight teams in the top 16 that might join in on the bidding. They should get a King's ransom for it... Houston is likely to get their QB at #2, and with Indy at #4 and Arizona entering a rebuild? Could see a trade there too. If Chicago drops below us, trading with the Raiders (7), Panthers (9), Titans (11), Jets (13), or Commanders (16) - and doesn't subsequently trade up above us again - that's one less non-QB coming off the board before us. Arizona seems in prime position to take Carter or Anderson, but they really are in disarray as a franchise right now. They're likely to trade DeAndre Hopkins this offseason - could they opt for Smith-Njigba or Quinten Williams to make Kyler happy? It wouldn't shock me. Neither would taking the top offensive lineman to try to keep Kyler healthy. Neither would something off the wall like taking Bijan Robinson. If either or both of Chicago and Arizona stay put and take the top defenders, I think that starts to open up trade possibilities as Stroud/Levis/Richardson slide. That said, there are a lot of scenarios where one of the truly elite defenders with #1 overall potential are still on the board at #6, in which case I would almost certainly stay put. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hongbit Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 It should be Houston but I can see one of these teams that needs QB passing this year and starting the tank job for Caleb Williams in next years draft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichiganCardinal Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 7 minutes ago, Hongbit said: It should be Houston but I can see one of these teams that needs QB passing this year and starting the tank job for Caleb Williams in next years draft. With so many in need, there are plenty of options. I could see it being the Raiders if they start a full scale tear down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 i dont think the raiders will tear anything down, mcdaniels was juat hired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 Lions are in a good position at 6. Either there will be a run on QBs and the Lions will have their choice of top defenders in the draft, or they will be able to trade back and acquire multiple picks. There really doesn't seem to be a downside. It's like Holmes 1st draft where Sewell slid down to 7. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 13 minutes ago, Hongbit said: It should be Houston but I can see one of these teams that needs QB passing this year and starting the tank job for Caleb Williams in next years draft. If I was Houston I think I'd wait till next year to get the QB but admittedly I'm not as high on Bryce Young due to his size as others may be. Yeah you can say that with the NFL parity you don't know if you're going to be picking number 1 next year and that's true but even if you don't get Caleb there should be a few others that I would take over anybody in this class. Plus Houston has extra capital due to the Watson trade so they have ammunition to trade up if need be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 I think it's Chicago who should tank for Caleb Williams. They can trade out of 1 and have ammunition to move up next year. I see a lot of Bears fans are happy with Fields but he's one of the worst passers. I don't get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichiganCardinal Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 Houston can't figure out a one-year plan let alone a five or ten-year plan. It wouldn't surprise me if any one of Young/Levis/Stroud/Richardson ended up being the best QB of the class. All likely worse than Caleb Williams, but that's not a sure thing, and neither is a successful tank. Just watch Major League. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 If Goff played for the Bears this year, he would have set the single season team record in passing yards, QB rating and tied the single season record in TDs. Bears suck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 there's a legit argument for the bears to take young #1 and deal fields. fields is now on year 3 of his rookie deal and is about to get expensive. that team has so many holes. yes, they have $120 million ij cap space, but they need an entirely new offensive and defensive line. nobody can totally overhaul that in one free agent class. it might be better for them to reset the clock on their rookie qb deal timeline. that said, fields is a dynamic player....he just hasnt really progressed as a passer. not that he hasnt improved a bit, but that seems more to me because the offensive scheme is better. no more matt nagy. otoh, the scheme is better because theyre running fields more, which is going to get him killed. the passing opened up because he's been running or because theyve called plays to get them open, not because fields has improved as a passer. he still holds the ball too long just like he did in college. but what do you get for fields? if they think theyre going to get multiple first rounders for fields i think theyre in for a surprise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 there's an argument not to take young because he will be fragile look tua. too small to take the hits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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