The 118th United States Congress

[mtutiger]

1 hour ago, Screwball said:

Really? Live under Russia rule?

I mean, Russia invaded Ukraine of their own accord and wished to decapitate their government back in February 22.

I gather you may be too far gone to remember that 

Edited December 22, 2022 by mtutiger

[mtutiger]

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

I don't even disagree with SB when it comes to most of the recent *US* military adventures, but the Ukrainians are fighting for themselves, and that is all the difference in the world. These are not American boots trying to proxy our objectives onto anyone else.

Ding ding ding.

Nothing personal SB, but one senses that you do not care about what the Ukrainians actually want in this conflict. And are actually dying for it every single day.

Just own it, stand on those beliefs and move on.

Edited December 22, 2022 by mtutiger

[Screwball]

25 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

I mean, Russia invaded Ukraine of their own accord and wished to decapitate their government back in February 22.

I gather you may be too far gone to remember that 

Do you think they are going to invade us next?

[mtutiger]

5 minutes ago, Screwball said:

Do you think they are going to invade us next?

They just want self determination and not to live under Russian rule.

You don't care about any of that. Just admit it.

....

When you address this, I'll answer your question

[Edman85]

Meanwhile, in another thread, Microline draws an impressively straight and very narrow line.

[Edman85]

29 minutes ago, Screwball said:

Do you think they are going to invade us next?

Not us but there was fear of what they would do after Ukraine before Ukraine put up a fight.

[mtutiger]

10 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

Not us but there was fear of what they would do after Ukraine before Ukraine put up a fight.

 

I suspect that SB doesn't care any more about the sovereignty of Poland or Romania or Moldova than he does about Ukraine.

But I'll await his answer on that

Edited December 22, 2022 by mtutiger

[1984Echoes]

3 hours ago, mtutiger said:

They just want self determination and not to live under Russian rule.

You don't care about any of that. Just admit it.

Here's an easy one... and sb wouldn't have the balls to admit it's true either:

Our country, the good ol' USA... doesn't exist except France sent billions (just guessing in today's dollars) to us from 1776-1784, experienced officers (anyone know the name Lafayette?) and soldiers, and Naval Ships in which WE DON'T WIN the American Revolution without that support.

Anyone opposed to supporting Ukraine lacks balls IMO.

[Screwball]

What’s In (and Not In) the $1.7 Trillion Spending Bill - from the Times

FTA:
 

Quote

 

Military spending is the big winner.

The Defense Department would see an extraordinary surge in spending when adding its regular 2023 fiscal year budget together with additional funds being allocated to help respond to the war in Ukraine.

All together, half of the $1.7 trillion in funding included in the package goes to defense, or a total of $858 billion. It comes after lawmakers bucked a request from President Biden and approved a substantial increase in the annual defense policy bill passed this month.

The 2023 budget just for the Defense Department would total $797.6 billion in discretionary spending — a 10 percent increase over last year’s budget — representing an extra $69.3 billion in funds for the Pentagon, which is $36.1 billion above the president’s budget request.

 

Bold mine. More money for bombs and killing people.  But I don't care about "Poland or Romania or Moldova or Ukraine." Guess not - I'm just against funding things to blow them up with.

Nobody in the world wants this war other than the greed machine that controls DC. Where the money comes from - from the very same people who care nothing about killing people for money - because they get rich. It's what they do, and have done, for as long as I've been alive.  So, save me your moral bullshit.

[1984Echoes]

Forget moral BS.

Teddy Roosevelt: "Speak softly and carry a big stick".

Which I agree with 100%.

Excellent spending on the military...

And I support Ukraine 1000%.

[mtutiger]

29 minutes ago, Screwball said:

Bold mine. More money for bombs and killing people.  But I don't care about "Poland or Romania or Moldova or Ukraine." Guess not - I'm just against funding things to blow them up with.

 

Poland and Romania are members of NATO, Chief. Moldova aspires to be a member. Maybe you are too far gone to remember, but that means that we are all security partners and that, you know, we aren't funding things to blow them up with. All of those countries, in fact, approve of the role we are playing the the Russia/Ukraine conflict. 

But again, you keep dancing around it, I'll give you another crack at it:

They just want self determination and not to live under Russian rule.

You don't care about any of that. Just admit it.

Any interest in answering at all?

Edited December 22, 2022 by mtutiger

[Screwball]

11 hours ago, mtutiger said:

Poland and Romania are members of NATO, Chief. Moldova aspires to be a member. Maybe you are too far gone to remember, but that means that we are all security partners and that, you know, we aren't funding things to blow them up with. All of those countries, in fact, approve of the role we are playing the the Russia/Ukraine conflict. 

But again, you keep dancing around it, I'll give you another crack at it:

They just want self determination and not to live under Russian rule.

You don't care about any of that. Just admit it.

Any interest in answering at all?

Chief? What's that suppose to mean?  A little pissy are we?  How about sticking Chief where the sun don't shine.

You should do a few things; 1) read some history about Ukraine and our "influence" in that country over the years (start around 2014ish). 2) get your combine started for more straw bailing. 3) check yourself into a propaganda detox center. 4) get over your righteous self.

Now you can get back to tongue bathing the little creep Zelenskyy - you know the CIA/State Dept. puppet helping funnel money to the killing for profit machine and the whores in DC.  Hell, you could even put a blue and yellow sign in your yard too.  Yea, that would be great!

Merry Christmas, and don't forget to send a few grand to the Ukrainians via Raytheon. The people of Virginia will love you for it.  Meanwhile, I'll go long RTX.

[romad1]

JVL has an interesting memo this morning questioning Ron Desantis' position on the Zelensky speech. 

The actual center of this country is behind Zelensky but Desantis is probably hedging his bets with the extremists on the RW. 

[mtutiger]

52 minutes ago, Screwball said:

Chief? What's that suppose to mean?  A little pissy are we?  How about sticking Chief where the sun don't shine.

You should do a few things; 1) read some history about Ukraine and our "influence" in that country over the years (start around 2014ish). 2) get your combine started for more straw bailing. 3) check yourself into a propaganda detox center. 4) get over your righteous self.

Now you can get back to tongue bathing the little creep Zelenskyy - you know the CIA/State Dept. puppet helping funnel money to the killing for profit machine and the whores in DC.  Hell, you could even put a blue and yellow sign in your yard too.  Yea, that would be great!

Merry Christmas, and don't forget to send a few grand to the Ukrainians via Raytheon. The people of Virginia will love you for it.  Meanwhile, I'll go long RTX.

I didn't see an answer to my question anywhere in this screed, so one assumes that you do not care about the fact that Ukrainians want self determination and don't want to live under Russian subjugation.

Have a Merry Christmas!

[Tiger337]

SB is not all wrong here.  I do believe we are on the right side in this war, but I don't believe the the United States is involved in the war for wholly magnanimous reasons.  We never are.

Edited December 22, 2022 by Tiger337

[romad1]

3 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

SB is not all wrong here.  I do believe we are on the right side in this war, but I don't believe the the United States is involved in the war for wholly magnanimous reasons.  We never are.

Why were we at war with Japan in the 1940s?  Was that different?

[romad1]

 

[Tiger337]

7 minutes ago, romad1 said:

Why were we at war with Japan in the 1940s?  Was that different?

"the last good war"

[mtutiger]

12 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

SB is not all wrong here.  I do believe we are on the right side in this war, but I don't believe the the United States is involved in the war for wholly magnanimous reasons.  We never are.

But at the end of the day:

1) This conflict started when Vladimir Putin chose to invade. Lockheed or Raytheon or whoever didn't tell Putin to invade, he had agency and made the choice on his own recognizance.

2) The Ukrainians, who SB refers to as puppets, did not want Russia to invade and, when they did, they chose to fight back and solicited the help of the world in the process. In other words, they want our help.

I have never claimed that there aren't ways in which the broader conflict might have geopolitical impacts that benefit the United States. But the chain of events that led to this situation originated in Moscow. Full stop. They are the reason we are here now.

On another note, I would suspect that so.e folks who have spent years (correctly) identifying how ****ed up The War in Iraq was would be able to identify how similar Russia's role in this current conflict is similar to our role in Iraq. And would calibrate their criticism to conquest and nation-building accordingly, given that Russia's justification for the invasion included all about those things.

But maybe it's too much to expect intellectual consistency.

[gehringer_2]

31 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

SB is not all wrong here.  I do believe we are on the right side in this war, but I don't believe the the United States is involved in the war for wholly magnanimous reasons.  We never are.

For over 150 years, no land battle has been fought on the American mainland. Oceans help, but the other primary reason is that for over 100 of those years we have an explicit policy of supporting allies closer to the things that threaten us, so that when those threats turn into hot conflicts, they happen 'over there' and not 'over here'. Does this policy have an element of cynicism and self-serving? Of course, yet it's still manifestly also in the interest of a party like the Ukrainians, who would just as soon win the battle for their land instead of becoming meat ground in the prelude to the US facing Russian at the Atlantic shoreline. Just because everyone's motives are not 'pure' does not mean a situation is still not a win-win.

Edited December 22, 2022 by gehringer_2

[romad1]

From time to time when I rewatch "3 Days of the Condor" even with its problematic rape scene, it comes across as a very interesting look at the issue of what is in our interest.

The final scene when Cliff Robertson and Robert Redford are arguing and Robertson is talking about the nasty things the US Government does on behalf of the people is thought provoking.   I sometimes sympathize with Robertson and I sometimes sympathize with Redford.

 

[mtutiger]

39 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Just because everyone's motives are not 'pure' does not mean a situation is still not a win-win.

Another way to frame it is that, sometimes geopolitical incentives and moral incentives can be in full alignment.

I get that cynicism tends to rule the day in this country, but this is one of those cases, and it is a direct result of decisions made by Vladimir Putin.

[gehringer_2]

30 minutes ago, romad1 said:

From time to time when I rewatch "3 Days of the Condor" even with its problematic rape scene, it comes across as a very interesting look at the issue of what is in our interest.

The final scene when Cliff Robertson and Robert Redford are arguing and Robertson is talking about the nasty things the US Government does on behalf of the people is thought provoking.   I sometimes sympathize with Robertson and I sometimes sympathize with Redford.

 

It the same dichotomy as Nickelson in 'A Few Good Men' but Jack played it over the top enough so that listening to the argument wasn't the point. The difference between the ambiguity of the 70's and the self assuredness of the 90's

But it's Von Sydow that makes TDOTC. He is beyond perfect. His is the only real truth in that universe.

Edited December 22, 2022 by gehringer_2

[Screwball]

From 7-February-2014; US regime-change operation in Ukraine exposed in leaked diplomatic phone call
 

Quote

 

A leaked phone conversation between Victoria Nuland, assistant secretary of state for European and Eurasian affairs, and Geoffrey Pyatt, the US ambassador to Ukraine, has exposed the anti-democratic and colonialist character of the Obama administration’s intervention in the former Soviet republic.

The discussion between the two officials includes a detailed review of which right-wing opposition figures Washington is working to install in office, and how it is using the United Nations to rubber-stamp the operation. While Germany and other European powers have worked closely with the Obama administration in promoting the violent protests against President Viktor Yanukovych, the leaked phone call reveals tensions between the imperialist powers. At one point Nuland tells Pyatt, “Fuck the EU.”

The discussion, posted anonymously on YouTube, underscores the thoroughly cynical character of Washington’s public diplomacy. The Obama administration’s rhetoric about “democracy” and the Ukrainian people’s right to determine their own future is a charade, concocted for public consumption. Behind the scenes, government officials speak frankly with one another about the real agenda—advancing Washington’s geo-strategic and economic interests in Eastern Europe by installing pro-US and anti-Russian puppet figures in the Ukrainian capital.

 

Quote

 

The utter criminality of Washington’s drive to install a pliant regime in Kiev sharply emerges in Nuland and Pyatt’s discussion of Oleh Tyahnybok, the leader of the neo-fascist All-Ukrainian Union (Svoboda) party. Nuland describes Tyahnybok as one of the “big three” within the opposition leadership. The State Department operative goes on to tell Pyatt that “what [Yatsenyuk] needs [after he is installed in office] is Klitsch and Tyahnybok on the outside—he needs to be talking to them four times a week.”

These remarks confirm that there is no confusion whatsoever within the Obama administration that it is working in partnership with fascist movements in Ukraine.

 

Quote

This is one of the “big three” figures with whom the Obama administration is working to install a client regime in Ukraine. Yesterday, Nuland met with several opposition figures, among them Oleh Tyahnybok. No details of the discussion have been made public, but Ambassador Pyatt released via Twitter a photo of a smiling Nuland posing next to the pro-Nazi leader and his colleagues.

 

Quote

 

In her telephone conversation with Pyatt, Nuland praises UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon for deploying a special envoy, Robert Serry, to Ukraine. This, she explains, will “be great, I think, to help glue this thing [i.e., a new government].” These remarks underscore the role played by the UN as an instrument of imperialism, working with the US and its allies to cover up or endorse their predatory operations around the world.

Immediately after praising the UN, Nuland declares, “Fuck the EU,” in apparent frustration that the European powers were not doing more to back the regime-change operation. According to the Kyiv Post, another leaked phone conversation, in German, between EU official Helga Schmid and EU Ambassador to Ukraine Jan Tombinski includes a discussion between the two figures over how the US regards the EU as being “soft” on Ukraine.

 

 

Quote

 

Washington is engaged in a ruthless struggle to undermine any obstacle posed by Moscow to its drive to dominate the geo-strategically crucial Eurasia region, the vast land mass stretching from Eastern Europe, extending over the oil-rich Middle East and Central Asia, and reaching to China’s western borders. US imperialism is promoting fascist movements in Ukraine and fuelling the flames of a nascent civil war as a means of advancing its interests and ratcheting up the pressure on the Russian government.

Nuland’s nomination as assistant secretary of state for European and Eurasian affairs in May last year clearly formed part of the Obama administration’s aggressive strategy. She previously served as a deputy national security adviser to Vice President Dick Cheney and is married to the prominent “neoconservative” commentator and historian Robert Kagan.

 

Kagan is also one of the founders of PNAC (Project for a New American Century), along with Bill Kristol. Signatories include John Bolton, Dick Cheney, Elliot Abrams, Jeb Bush, Scooter Libby, Don Rumsfeld, and Paul Wolfowitz.  Their statement of principles is a good read into the vision held by these war-mongering criminals. While the think-tank itself may be dissolved, these people and the ideology is not. It is alive and well today.

This was suppose to be Hillary's war but that damn Trump got in the way and won the election, so they had to wait 4 years. No wonder they are so pissy.

[Tigerbomb13]

The Hillary body count continues…