SoCalTiger Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 Maybe it's possible to get Baez on a one year 20 mil rebuild his reputation contract. He was traded this year so no draft penalty attached. I don't want him in a long term multi year deal but for one year we can see if Kreidler develops further and maybe have a shot at Turner for 2023. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cowan Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 1 hour ago, Useful Idiot said: Perhaps Hinch can provide 2-way leverage in that regard to bring Correa to the D? Hinch is the reason why I don't want Correa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Useful Idiot Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 8 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said: Hinch is the reason why I don't want Correa. Really? Why is that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports_Freak Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 Very good post and I agree with most of it. But I also think there should be a spot of players not returning. W. Castro..gone. V. Reyes? Gone..And one of either Goodrum or H. Castro...gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports_Freak Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 3 hours ago, RatkoVarda said: don't disagree, but Wentz, Faedo, Turnbull, Rogers and Boyd (sort of) should appease any god no matter how cruel I don't think the Tigers will sign Boyd. Isn't he eligible for arbitration? What would he cost us? Don't get me wrong, I want him as long as he's healthy. But at what price do you draw the line? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cowan Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 2 hours ago, Useful Idiot said: Really? Why is that? Correa is from the Astros team that openly defied Hinch. So far, we are told, the Tigers are responding to Hinch's leadership. So I don't want a guy in the room who has already chosen to ignore him in the past, influencing the younger players. Of course, if I could choose between Correa and Hinch, it's Correa all day. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 27 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said: I don't think the Tigers will sign Boyd. Isn't he eligible for arbitration? What would he cost us? Don't get me wrong, I want him as long as he's healthy. But at what price do you draw the line? The Tigers have been largely successful avoiding arbitration awards and I don't follow other teams' arbitration issues so I have no idea what an arbitrator does with a guy who is hurt. As far as I understand the system, in general they tend to reward seniority - in which case an arbitrator might be likely to make an award larger than the Tigers would be willing to accept, so they would have incentive to cut him loose. OTOH, if Boyd realizes he is damaged goods and the Tigers are going to cut him loose rather than go to arbitration, and he knows no other team is going to offer him much as FA, and he wants to stay, he might just come to an agreement with the Tigers and waive arbitration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RatkoVarda Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 2022 is Boyd's 4th and final year of arbitration. he made 6.5M in 2021, so if they offer him arbitration, he gets at least 5.2M (80%). seems like a lot for a guy who might get 10 starts in. 5M probably gets you a decent 5th starter w/o injury concerns. they are going to need to work something out before the arbitration deadline. like 2022 at $3m, with team option at $10M for 2023, or a $2M buyout. Boyd gets $5m minimum. Drew Smyly and Michael Pineda both signed 2/10M contracts coming off TJ, with expectation that they would not ptich year 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 8 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said: 2022 is Boyd's 4th and final year of arbitration. he made 6.5M in 2021, so if they offer him arbitration, he gets at least 5.2M (80%). seems like a lot for a guy who might get 10 starts in. 5M probably gets you a decent 5th starter w/o injury concerns. they are going to need to work something out before the arbitration deadline. like 2022 at $3m, with team option at $10M for 2023, or a $2M buyout. Boyd gets $5m minimum. Drew Smyly and Michael Pineda both signed 2/10M contracts coming off TJ, with expectation that they would not ptich year 1 so last year the arbitration deadline date was Jan 15. Will Boyd and the Tigers even know by that date when he would be ready? Reports at the time of the surgery were "6-9" months but that 3 month uncertainty is half the season counting from the end of this Sept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said: The Tigers have been largely successful avoiding arbitration awards and I don't follow other teams' arbitration issues so I have no idea what an arbitrator does with a guy who is hurt. As far as I understand the system, in general they tend to reward seniority - in which case an arbitrator might be likely to make an award larger than the Tigers would be willing to accept, so they would have incentive to cut him loose. OTOH, if Boyd realizes he is damaged goods and the Tigers are going to cut him loose rather than go to arbitration, and he knows no other team is going to offer him much as FA, and he wants to stay, he might just come to an agreement with the Tigers and waive arbitration. My guess is it is probably in Boyd’s best interest to rehab with an organization that he is comfortable with. Maybe it makes sense to agree on a one year contract with a one year vesting/mutual option? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 1 hour ago, Jim Cowan said: Correa is from the Astros team that openly defied Hinch. So far, we are told, the Tigers are responding to Hinch's leadership. So I don't want a guy in the room who has already chosen to ignore him in the past, influencing the younger players. Of course, if I could choose between Correa and Hinch, it's Correa all day. Regardless if there really is interest by Detroit, I’m sure Correa’s camp will use Detroit as leverage for a contract. It is kind of interesting how we’ve heard of the Houston connection without rehashing how the fallout from the trash cans all went down. I prefer to pass on Correa. He’s not a guy I want to root for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 I have no interest in Boyd in 2023. Don't you have to extend a QO? To get arbitration? Don't extend a QO. He's not going to sign anywhere else anyways. Sign him to a minor league contract so he can rehab in our system, which is me being nice here, and see if he's able to pitch in July/ August with the Tigers. He can also have a stipulation in the contract that he's in MLB with the Tigers by mid-July, or he gets released and is a FA. If he's not ready for MLB, he's a FA at the end of 2022 one way or another, so let him go. I'm not interested in offering him any more than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 (edited) 10 minutes ago, casimir said: My guess is it is probably in Boyd’s best interest to rehab with an organization that he is comfortable with. Maybe it makes sense to agree on a one year contract with a one year vesting/mutual option? And it's more than just comfort. Players don't own the metrics data the teams have on them. So if you are rehabbing and you want to see your mechanics video/motion capture data etc, and you are with a new team you are SOL unless you have your own from an independent biomechanics lab or training facility like Driveline. Your old team is not likely going to give that stuff to your new team. Edited October 4, 2021 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 Boyd: 1-Year minor league contract with an MLB opt-out by mid-July. That's it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 (edited) 16 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: I have no interest in Boyd in 2023. Don't you have to extend a QO? To get arbitration? Don't extend a QO. He's not going to sign anywhere else anyways. Sign him to a minor league contract so he can rehab in our system, which is me being nice here, and see if he's able to pitch in July/ August with the Tigers. He can also have a stipulation in the contract that he's in MLB with the Tigers by mid-July, or he gets released and is a FA. If he's not ready for MLB, he's a FA at the end of 2022 one way or another, so let him go. I'm not interested in offering him any more than that. More or less, but I think QO terminology is usually used for offers made to free agents. If a team doesn't make a QO they are not eligible for draft compensation for losing a player in FA. In arbitration both sides make a proposal, the arbitrator picks one. I guess you could call that a QO but it's not the usual use of term I think. In practice it is similar since a team can always renounce a player and refuse to go arbitration at all - which in effect is making no arbitration offer. But with a FA the exact size of the QO is fixed by formula. That isn't the case for arbitration offers. Edited October 4, 2021 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 Right... but I thought there was some kind of similar process... Like not extending an (arbitration) offer makes that player a free agent. Call it qualifying or whatever the correct terminology is... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 2 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: Right... but I thought there was some kind of similar process... Like not extending an (arbitration) offer makes that player a free agent. Call it qualifying or whatever the correct terminology is... right - if the team refuses to go to arbitration the player becomes a FA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 Do it. And then sign Boyd to a minor league contract so he can rehab in the Org... If he warrants starting with the Tigers again by mid-season or so (does MLB have two-way or split contracts? One rate for minor leagues and a separate agreed-upon rate for MLB? (not talking about MLB minimum...)) fine. If not, well then... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Useful Idiot Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 36 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: Call it qualifying or whatever the correct terminology is... Correct term is "final" offer. Both sides submit what they are willing to accept, and the arbiter picks from either/or Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Useful Idiot Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 (edited) duplicate deleted Edited October 4, 2021 by Useful Idiot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motor City Sonics Posted October 4, 2021 Author Share Posted October 4, 2021 3 hours ago, Sports_Freak said: Very good post and I agree with most of it. But I also think there should be a spot of players not returning. W. Castro..gone. V. Reyes? Gone..And one of either Goodrum or H. Castro...gone. I don't think this lineup is going to undergo a whole lot of change this coming offseason. They might add another catcher for a year and they could add a SS, but I expect most of those guys to be back. I don't expect them to make those moves because they've got Tork, Greene and Kreidler in their back pocket, so that might prevent them from throwing a lot of money at the lineup. I do think we'll see some significant changes with the pitching staff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archie Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 (edited) It will be interesting to see who they offer contracts to and who they let go. Last year most people thought they would let some of the players go but they signed everyone. Edited October 4, 2021 by Archie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 1 hour ago, Useful Idiot said: Correct term is "final" offer. Both sides submit what they are willing to accept, and the arbiter picks from either/or LOL. So I was going to use 'arbiter' in my prior posts but realized I didn't know if there was a difference between 'arbiter' and 'arbitrator' or if 'arbitrator' was just another needless addition of syllables to sound more imperious. Turns out there is one. In law, an arbiter executes a ruling he doesn't have any choice in - IOW he can only apply some pre-existing rule - his function is what I believe they call 'ministerial'. In contrast an 'arbitrator' has freedom to create an outcome. So since in baseball the choice between the contracts is one the guy in question is free to make using his own judgement, he is an 'arbitrator'. So I learned something new today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Useful Idiot Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 (edited) 26 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: LOL. So I was going to use 'arbiter' in my prior posts but realized I didn't know if there was a difference between 'arbiter' and 'arbitrator' or if 'arbitrator' was just another needless addition of syllables to sound more imperious. Turns out there is one. In law, an arbiter executes a ruling he doesn't have any choice in - IOW he can only apply some pre-existing rule - his function is what I believe they call 'ministerial'. In contrast an 'arbitrator' has freedom to create an outcome. So since in baseball the choice between the contracts is one the guy in question is free to make using his own judgement, he is an 'arbitrator'. So I learned something new today. Thank you, I really failed to appreciate (or care, for that matter) of a possible distinction. But now that you have primed the pump...in the baseball arbitration process, the arbitrator is not free to devise his own compromise solution, he can side with either the organization, or with the player...he must pick from the best and final offers placed on the table....so...doesn't that clear the hurdles of what you describe as an arbiter? Edited October 5, 2021 by Useful Idiot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 1 hour ago, Useful Idiot said: Correct term is "final" offer. Both sides submit what they are willing to accept, and the arbiter picks from either/or Wrong answer. Try again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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