MichiganCardinal Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 I think Campbell's comments could just as easily be saying that we are not going to be the 2022 Jaguars out-paying everybody else for the free agents we want. I have a hard time believing that the master plan involves never signing free agents to multi-year deal. That would be uncharacteristically dumb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 14 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said: I really want them to get one good corner in free agency. Preferably Dean... This is where I am at. Exactly what I want... full stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stanley70 Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 2 hours ago, KL2 said: Wow talk about not accurate at all. I went "ape shit" because you said we could AFFORD big players. That is why. Then you change an said we wouldn't be big players. Those are two totally different concepts. I said you didn't understand how contracts work because you don't. You in your argument the Lions couldn't AFFORD players used examples of Bradberry making $15 million a year. that is AAV not cap hit, different concept which you don't understand. I used Flowers as an example to show how AAV and cap hit isn't the same. In year one (which is what the Lions would be signing any big player for this offseason) it was dramatically less than his AAV. I never once said we should focus on AAV, never not once. You can link it. Just keep making stuff up, you were wrong in your inital post, wrong in your summary of it. And have shown you don't have a grasp of the siutation. Just admit when you are wrong, it's ok buddy. The literal first line in my post was that they probably wouldn't be big players in free agency. To which you replied that it wasn't based on fact at all. They would use up their cap space on resigning their own guys, and obviously wouldn't be backloading a bunch of contracts to fit guys in this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.TaterSalad Posted March 2, 2023 Author Share Posted March 2, 2023 22 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: I mean, the Packers dominated the division for over a decade and did win a Super Bowl. It's not exactly a bad thing. The Lions have a lot of draft capital this year so that may be why they are shying away from free agents. Another thing, the Lions were the 2nd youngest team in the NFL last year. Their oldest player is 29. That young core is returning and it's reasonable to assume their young players are going to get better. They are basically adding three first round picks with Williams being available from the beginning of the season now. I would maybe like to see one significant free agent meaning more than a two year deal. Maybe someone like Tremaine Edmunds or Dean. Yes, but the Packers did so with an MVP and HOF QB leading the charge. There's a chance the Packers could have been even better had Thompson been willing to go out and address a few needs through free agency. The Packers with Ted Thompson as GM had a lot of success, so it isn't like it's a failed strategy entirely, it clearly worked for them. I just feel the Lions have a window that's now open for them to be a little aggressive and make a big move in free agency or via trade. In the NFL your teams window is only open so long, take advantage of it as much as you can, while you can. That doesn't mean I want him taking the Les Snead approach and mortgaging the future to go all in for only one season, but it does mean I want them to add an impact starter in free agency or through a trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Stanley70 said: Just admit when you are wrong, it's ok buddy. The literal first line in my post was that they probably wouldn't be big players in free agency. To which you replied that it wasn't based on fact at all. They would use up their cap space on resigning their own guys, and obviously wouldn't be backloading a bunch of contracts to fit guys in this year. KL2 is a well documented liar but he is right here. You originally said this: Your whole premise was that they wouldn't be big players in free agency because of the cap. People have pointed out that the cap is not the reason they wouldn't be players in free agency. The Lions have the cap space to sign a big free agent or two, it's whether they want to. Your post was talking about them being limited by the cap. Edited March 2, 2023 by Motown Bombers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 3 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said: Yes, but the Packers did so with an MVP and HOF QB leading the charge. There's a chance the Packers could have been even better had Thompson been willing to go out and address a few needs through free agency. The Packers with Ted Thompson as GM had a lot of success, so it isn't like it's a failed strategy entirely, it clearly worked for them. I just feel the Lions have a window that's now open for them to be a little aggressive and make a big move in free agency or via trade. In the NFL your teams window is only open so long, take advantage of it as much as you can, while you can. That doesn't mean I want him taking the Les Snead approach and mortgaging the future to go all in for only one season, but it does mean I want them to add an impact starter in free agency or through a trade. The Lions are building a sustainable contender. I'm not sure they care about windows. If they build a good team, it doesn't matter how good the rest of the NFC is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichiganCardinal Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 Just had a chance this morning to watch Holmes and Campbell speaking yesterday. I haven't seen anyone mention that Levi's name came up. He is on track in his rehab and in the team facilities... Nice to see him not just giving up. Would be great if he could even just turn into a depth piece on the defensive line. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hongbit Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 It also seems they still like Charles Harris and have every intention of keeping him this year. Obviously that could change and he could still be on the cut list but if not they have a deep room at DE. Not sure if that impacts their thought process for someone like Wilson or Murphy at 6. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stanley70 Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 2 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: KL2 is a well documented liar but he is right here. You originally said this: Your whole premise was that they wouldn't be big players in free agency because of the cap. People have pointed out that the cap is not the reason they wouldn't be players in free agency. The Lions have the cap space to sign a big free agent or two, it's whether they want to. Your post was talking about them being limited by the cap. Look, I understand they can push money due out into later years via signing bonuses, voidable years, etc. I didn't specify that, i figured most understood that. But the point is that they are limited by their cap space in that pretty much all of the contract dollars they would be adding, beyond signing their own guys, would have to be forced in and burdening future teams with extra cap dollars. They do not want to do that as i figured. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.TaterSalad Posted March 2, 2023 Author Share Posted March 2, 2023 (edited) 43 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said: I think Campbell's comments could just as easily be saying that we are not going to be the 2022 Jaguars out-paying everybody else for the free agents we want. I have a hard time believing that the master plan involves never signing free agents to multi-year deal. That would be uncharacteristically dumb. It's what Ted Thompson did in Green Bay though, so it isn't like it's an unproven strategy that no team has ever tried. It's what the Lions did last year, which I understood, because they weren't ready to win now. Maybe I'll have egg on my face for saying this, but like many, I feel this team is ready to make a deep playoff run with the right additions to the roster next year. Bringing back Alex Anzalone, John Cominsky, DJ Chark, and then drafting Devon Witherspoon and whoever at #18 feels underwhelming to me. While it is likely progress and a step in the right direction, it seems a smaller step then we could potentially otherwise take by adding an impact player like Jamel Dean, James Bradberry, Jalen Ramsey, Dalvin Tomlinson or whomever this offseason. Also, I don't want to get labeled as the Ted Thompson poster. "Remember when some people around here were saying Brad Holmes was Ted Thompson." I can already see that post coming in the future. I am not labeling Brad Holmes as Ted Thompson, just merely saying that by not ever being aggressive in free agency when your window to win is open it feels similar to what Thompson did for 15 years in Green Bay. I also feel that is a poor strategy, even if it did work in Green Bay because of Aaron Rodgers. But what do I know about building a championship NFL team. Edited March 2, 2023 by Mr.TaterSalad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 1 minute ago, Mr.TaterSalad said: It's what Ted Thompson did in Green Bay though, so it isn't like it's an unproven strategy that no team has ever tried. It's what the Lions did last year, which I understood, because they weren't ready to win now. Maybe I'll have egg on my face for saying this, but like many, I feel this team is ready to make a deep playoff run with the right additions to the roster next year. Bringing back Alex Anzalone, John Cominsky, DJ Chark, and then drafting Devon Witherspoon and whoever at #18 feels underwhelming to me. While it is likely progress and a step in the right direction, it seems a smaller step then we could potentially otherwise take by adding an impact player like Jamel Dean, James Bradberry, Jalen Ramsey, Dalvin Tomlinson or whomever this offseason. Also, I don't want to get labeled as the Ted Thompson poster. "Remember when some people around here were saying Brad Holmes was Ted Thompson." I can already see that post coming in the future. I am not labeling Brad Holmes as Ted Thompson, just merely saying that by not ever being aggressive in free agency when your window to win is open, that I feel it is a bit of a mistake. But what do I know about building a championship NFL team. Don't worry, you're forever the Connor Cook guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.TaterSalad Posted March 2, 2023 Author Share Posted March 2, 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: Don't worry, you're forever the Connor Cook guy. I'd rather be the Connor Cook guy then be the Martin Mayhew guy where I had to hear every year what a great roster we had and he was building from certain posters. Or the Eric Ebron guy, with people adamant that Ebron detractors just didn't understand how he was going to be utilized and what a difference maker he would be. Edited March 2, 2023 by Mr.TaterSalad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 7 minutes ago, Stanley70 said: Look, I understand they can push money due out into later years via signing bonuses, voidable years, etc. I didn't specify that, i figured most understood that. But the point is that they are limited by their cap space in that pretty much all of the contract dollars they would be adding, beyond signing their own guys, would have to be forced in and burdening future teams with extra cap dollars. They do not want to do that as i figured. yeah - I don't find the some of the arguments about how much cap space a team can clear for the current year very persuasive - you still pay the piper eventually. The counter arg is that the cap keeps going up so don't worry about how much you are burdening yourself in the out years; but it's usually just when people start assuming that things will go on forever that they don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 I think as long as you can continue to draft well the cap should never be a worry. When the time comes up to pay players you don't have to pay them all if you draft well, pick and choose the guys you feel you can't replace then just let the others walk and replace them with the rookie scale players you drafted. Of course this sounds great in theory but isn't that easy to actually do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Stanley70 said: Look, I understand they can push money due out into later years via signing bonuses, voidable years, etc. I didn't specify that, i figured most understood that. But the point is that they are limited by their cap space in that pretty much all of the contract dollars they would be adding, beyond signing their own guys, would have to be forced in and burdening future teams with extra cap dollars. They do not want to do that as i figured. Also not true. All they have to do is release 3 guys and the cap availability expands by 25-ish million or so. That is NOT burdening future cap. It is simply RELEASING guys. Edited March 2, 2023 by 1984Echoes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 1 minute ago, 1984Echoes said: Also not true. All they have to do is release 3 guys and the cap availability expands by 25-ish million or so. That is NOT burdening future cap. It is simply RELEASING guys. PS: Release Okwara, Harris, and Vatai, and tell me how much cap space is available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 2 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: PS: Release Okwara, Harris, and Vatai, and tell me how much cap space is available. About $40 million and that doesn't include any restructure of Goff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 1 minute ago, Motown Bombers said: About $40 million and that doesn't include any restructure of Goff. I didn't think it was that high... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 Just now, 1984Echoes said: I didn't think it was that high... They've already cut Brockers which added $10 million. Cutting those three players you mentioned adds about $18 million. They could add about another $12 million if they restructure Goff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 I would certainly, ABSOLUTELY, without-a-doubt... trade Okwara for signing Jamel Dean. Dump Okwara, and whatever other cap maneuvers are required, for that one move... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 Here's another thing, the Lions don't have players with big long term deals on the books which means their cap is wide open in the future and can easily sign their current star players like Sewell and St Brown while adding others. As it stands, the Lions are projected to have $122 million in cap space next year and $236 million in 2025. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 (edited) 14 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: PS: Release Okwara, Harris, and Vatai, and tell me how much cap space is available. of course. But if you are releasing guys you have to replace that depth. If you draft well enough to do that you are golden - but then again, if you draft really well in the NFL you are golden - period. It solves basically all your problems. If you can't draft well enough to replace guys then you're not in such great shape because you're going to have to turn around a spend that cap space signing guys to fill lholes or risk not having injury depth. An example would be what the Lions did a few seasons ago when IIRC correctly, they recovered cap space by letting Reiff walk but then had to turn around and sign Wagner for virtually equal money. So cutting guys is fine, but only if you can draft well enough to replace them cheap - so it's still the drafting (or scouting UFA etc) which is the critical piece. Being able to cut guys is a contingent option. It's not something you can count on on a regular basis unless you are doing other things well. That said, the Lions are in pretty good shape ....this year.... Edited March 2, 2023 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 2 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: of course. But if you are releasing guys you have to replace that depth. If you draft well enough to do that you are golden .... An example would be... Drafting Adrian Hutchinson, Josh Paschal, and James Houston, and therefore... No longer needing Okwara or Harris. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 2 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: of course. But if you are releasing guys you have to replace that depth. If you draft well enough to do that you are golden - but then again, if you draft really well in the NFL you are golden - period. It solves basically all your problems. If you can't draft well enough to replace guys then you're not in such great shape because you're going to have to turn around a spend that cap space resigning guys to fill lholes or risk not having injury depth. An example would be what the Lions did a few seasons ago when IIRC correctly, they recovered cap space by letting Reiff walk but then had to turn around and sign Wagner for virtually equal money. So cutting guys is fine, but only if you can draft well enough to replace them cheap - so it's still the drafting (or scouting UFA etc) which is the critical piece. Being able to cut guys is a contingent option. It's not something you can count on on a regular basis unless you are doing other things well. The Lions drafted Decker to replace Reiff. Wagner was signed for less money so I'm not sure the problem. The Lions have plenty of defensive ends. In fact, they have too many. Hutchinson replaced Okwara as the top pass rusher on the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 1 minute ago, 1984Echoes said: Drafting Adrian Hutchinson, Josh Paschal, and James Houston, and therefore... No longer needing Okwara or Harris. And signed John Cominsky who was productive and cheaper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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