Detroit Lions Offseason Thread 2023

[Jason_R]

16 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said:

I don’t have a Freep subscription, but I think this strategy quoted makes sense. Not to say they should ‘rule out’ guys for being too good or too highly rated (and I don’t think that’s what he’s saying), but rather knowing what you’re comfortable spending and having a list of guys who will improve your team in that budget. Worrying more about improvements than the ‘flashy’ signing, kind of like Chark last year.

It is prudent management to have descriptions and expectations for every role you need to fill, and to find someone with the skills to fill those roles. I don't want them signing the top FA at a position because they need someone at that position. 

On Ramsey, Holmes knows him as well as anyone. I presume that if Holmes thought Ramsey was the right guy for the Lions we would have heard more about the Lions' involvement in trade talks. Tweet above says Lions showed interest, but I doubt it was anything more than basic due diligence.  

[Mr.TaterSalad]

1 hour ago, MichiganCardinal said:

I don’t have a Freep subscription, but I think this strategy quoted makes sense. Not to say they should ‘rule out’ guys for being too good or too highly rated (and I don’t think that’s what he’s saying), but rather knowing what you’re comfortable spending and having a list of guys who will improve your team in that budget. Worrying more about improvements than the ‘flashy’ signing, kind of like Chark last year.

This quote is disappointing to me because it is the second or third time this off-season that they seem to be pulling back the curtain on their strategy. It seems to be another sign that they won't be big spenders or all that aggressive in free agency and prefer staying in house and drafting to fill major needs. I could be wrong in how I have interpreted some of what's being reported out of the organization.

The word window gets thrown around a lot about the Lions, but I think it's pertinent. This team has an open window and can be Super Bowl contenders next year in a weak NFC, with no clear top team next season. The 49ers and Eagles each have their own set of challenges figuring out who their starting QB will be and managing their cap space respectively. Adding a guy like Jalen Ramsey, Jamel Dean, James Bradberry, Dalvin Tomlinson, Bobby Wagner, is the kind of impact move that can really elevate this defense and team and solidifying their status as a contender. It can put them in line to compete with the Eagles and 49ers.

Resigning Alex Anzalone, Charles Harris, Amani Oruwariye, and a bunch of your own guys, while adding a B or C-level free agent for depth, then utilizing the draft and continued player development, could well work out just fine in the end. With the cap space available to us though and the potential to be a top team in the NFC, not adding at least one high-level starter feels, if not like a mistake, then at least underwhelming. Unless they turn into pumpkins or quit after getting a big contract I don't see how a Jalen Ramsey, Jamel Dean, or Dalvin Tomlinson type of player doesn't immediately elevate this team. I think elevates them over where they'd be if they just brought back their own guys and only make minimal free agent additions plus whomever they draft.

[Hongbit]

They didn’t say anything about the #2 or  #3 guy at a position so maybe there’s still a chance for a quality player or two.  

There’s a huge opportunity at the moment in the NFC and I’d like to see them take a shot with someone impactful at CB or LB.  

[Mr.TaterSalad]

Damn, we coulda had Ramsey for Shane Zylstra and a third round pick? What a bummer to miss out on that.

[MichiganCardinal]

47 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

This quote is disappointing to me because it is the second or third time this off-season that they seem to be pulling back the curtain on their strategy. It seems to be another sign that they won't be big spenders or all that aggressive in free agency and prefer staying in house and drafting to fill major needs. I could be wrong in how I have interpreted some of what's being reported out of the organization.

The word window gets thrown around a lot about the Lions, but I think it's pertinent. This team has an open window and can be Super Bowl contenders next year in a weak NFC, with no clear top team next season. The 49ers and Eagles each have their own set of challenges figuring out who their starting QB will be and managing their cap space respectively. Adding a guy like Jalen Ramsey, Jamel Dean, James Bradberry, Dalvin Tomlinson, Bobby Wagner, is the kind of impact move that can really elevate this defense and team and solidifying their status as a contender. It can put them in line to compete with the Eagles and 49ers.

Resigning Alex Anzalone, Charles Harris, Amani Oruwariye, and a bunch of your own guys, while adding a B or C-level free agent for depth, then utilizing the draft and continued player development, could well work out just fine in the end. With the cap space available to us though and the potential to be a top team in the NFC, not adding at least one high-level starter feels, if not like a mistake, then at least underwhelming. Unless they turn into pumpkins or quit after getting a big contract I don't see how a Jalen Ramsey, Jamel Dean, or Dalvin Tomlinson type of player doesn't immediately elevate this team. I think elevates them over where they'd be if they just brought back their own guys and only make minimal free agent additions plus whomever they draft.

I’m going to withhold judgment until this summer, when we can really reflect back on the off-season plan, but I’ll go on the record with saying I will be disappointed if we don’t add at least one quality starting corner in free agency. I’m not going to say “Jamel Dean or bust” or anything, but I’ll see what they do and then (hopefully) judge that addition for whether I think it was a good pickup. When you draft how Holmes has, you can afford to trust the process a bit more, but at the same time, it would not be fair to throw two rookie corners onto the defense and expect them to start week one.

I took the comments to mean more along the lines of “we can find starting talent in free agency that doesn’t make the talking heads at NFL Network lose their mind” than meaning “we aren’t interested in quality free agents because we are busy developing our own guys” … while Jacksonville’s free agent class from last year has worked out okay for them so far, I don’t think throwing money at the wall and seeing what sticks is a good long-term plan for success either.

I also don’t think it really matters if he makes these comments. I don’t think there are players or agents who would be upset by them, if they get their money they get their money. It’s not like he is revealing draft strategy. And along the lines of what Hongbit said, I think it maybe discounts player A1, but not the entire A-class.

[Jason_R]

I don't think he said they won't sign a high level starter. I heard him saying they won't do it just to do it. 

Also, remember that Holmes got three compensatory picks in 2022 which turned into Kirby Joseph, James Mitchell, and James Houston. Comp picks are another benefit to avoiding high priced free agents. 

[NYLion]

1 hour ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

This quote is disappointing to me because it is the second or third time this off-season that they seem to be pulling back the curtain on their strategy. It seems to be another sign that they won't be big spenders or all that aggressive in free agency and prefer staying in house and drafting to fill major needs. I could be wrong in how I have interpreted some of what's being reported out of the organization.

 

Why does this surprise you? Everything that Holmes and co. have done and said in their tenure indicates that the Lions won't be big spenders in free agency and won't chase big names via trade. You'd figure that maybe that strategy might change a bit now that expectations are rising but I don't think the Lions are a player or two away from Superbowl contention so I don't see them going big game hunting quite yet.

[buddha]

so micah parsons was right, jalen ramsey aint goin' to detroit.

[Jason_R]

21 minutes ago, NYLion said:

Why does this surprise you? Everything that Holmes and co. have done and said in their tenure indicates that the Lions won't be big spenders in free agency and won't chase big names via trade. You'd figure that maybe that strategy might change a bit now that expectations are rising but I don't think the Lions are a player or two away from Superbowl contention so I don't see them going big game hunting quite yet.

Even if they are a player or two away from Super Bowl contention (and I think, with a few lucky bounces, they are), who is to say that any one or two available free agents is/are the player they need?

Also, there is this assumption (not from you but from others) that if Holmes and Campbell don't write a big check that necessarily means they don't care about winning or don't understand their "window." That's absurd. They want to win more than we want them to win. Their incentives are to win, and to establish a franchise that will be competitive year after year. Sheila wants them to win. She has done nothing to indicate that she will not support them financially, and in fact everything she has done indicates that she is willing to spend. 

[Motown Bombers]

I think there is a plan and the Lions may be ahead of schedule and the fortunes in the NFC North have changed, doesn't mean they will deviate from the plan. Also keeps in mind the Lions were the 2nd youngest roster in the NFL last year. A lot of their core players haven't even hit their ceiling yet. I think there is an expectations to allow the young players to develop and take them to the playoffs. Even without signing free agents, the Lions are currently favorites as of right now in the division. 

[Mr.TaterSalad]

53 minutes ago, Jason_R said:

Even if they are a player or two away from Super Bowl contention (and I think, with a few lucky bounces, they are), who is to say that any one or two available free agents is/are the player they need?

Also, there is this assumption (not from you but from others) that if Holmes and Campbell don't write a big check that necessarily means they don't care about winning or don't understand their "window." That's absurd. They want to win more than we want them to win. Their incentives are to win, and to establish a franchise that will be competitive year after year. Sheila wants them to win. She has done nothing to indicate that she will not support them financially, and in fact everything she has done indicates that she is willing to spend. 

Can't we make a reasonable assumption that this defense would be markedly better with one of Jalen Ramsey, Jamel Dean or James Bradberry starting at Corner versus any combo of Okudah/Oruwariye/rookie starting? Same thing with Bobby Wagner or Tremaine Edwards starting versus an Alex Anzalone at LB?

I don't think there are many fans that think Campbell or Holmes don't care about winning. Nor do we think they are incapable of recognizing their window of opportunity to win. The argument, and it's not really a full blown criticism, about our window is one of money and time. First, they have the cap space to be aggressive enough to make one big, high-priced free agent signing or trade. They don't have to be Jacksonville from the year prior when it comes to spending in free agency, almost no one's expecting that. Certainly I am not. They need to be prudent with the cap to be able to re-sign their own guys over the next few years, but there is a difference between blowing your cap wad like Jacksonville did and making a targeted, but big dollar signing.

The second argument is that the NFC is slated to continue to be a weak conference next year, with no clear cut #1 team poised to win dominate and win it. Same thing goes for the NFC North, which looks particularly weak. So the Lions have a unique opportunity to be all three of ahead of schedule with their rebuild, smart about how they add to this roster, while still being aggressive enough to add an impact player that can make them NFC division and conference contenders. They should be able to hang with and beat the likes of the Eagles and 49ers next year with a strong off-season showing.

I don't think taking an approach like they didn't last year, with prove it deals, re-signing their own talent, and solid drafting necessarily elevates them to NFC contender status. That's not to say it won't be progress or won't turn out successful. I think even with a similar off-season to last year they'll still be a very good team, built to contend and win the NFC North. They could be a team built to do more and win the NFC and get to a Super Bowl.

Edited March 12, 2023 by Mr.TaterSalad

[Motown Bombers]

Reports are the Lions were in on Ramsey. Ramsey wanted to go to Miami. Lets see how free agency shakes out. They hardly have an CBs under contract so they will need to sign someone. 

[Jason_R]

29 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Can't we make a reasonable assumption that this defense would be markedly better with one of Jalen Ramsey, Jamel Dean or James Bradberry starting at Corner versus any combo of Okudah/Oruwariye/rookie starting? Same thing with Bobby Wagner or Tremaine Edwards starting versus an Alex Anzalone at LB?

I don't think there are many fans that think Campbell or Holmes don't care about winning. Nor do we think they are incapable of recognizing their window of opportunity to win. The argument, and it's not really a full blown criticism, about our window is one of money and time. First, they have the cap space to be aggressive enough to make one big, high-priced free agent signing or trade. They don't have to be Jacksonville from the year prior when it comes to spending in free agency, almost no one's expecting that. Certainly I am not. They need to be prudent with the cap to be able to re-sign their own guys over the next few years, but there is a difference between blowing your cap wad like Jacksonville did and making a targeted, but big dollar signing.

The second argument is that the NFC is slated to continue to be a weak conference next year, with no clear cut #1 team poised to win dominate and win it. Same thing goes for the NFC North, which looks particularly weak. So the Lions have a unique opportunity to be all three of ahead of schedule with their rebuild, smart about how they add to this roster, while still being aggressive enough to add an impact player that can make them NFC division and conference contenders. They should be able to hang with and beat the likes of the Eagles and 49ers next year with a strong off-season showing.

I don't think taking an approach like they didn't last year, with prove it deals, re-signing their own talent, and solid drafting necessarily elevates them to NFC contender status. That's not to say it won't be progress or won't turn out successful. I think even with a similar off-season to last year they'll still be a very good team, built to contend and win the NFC North. They could be a team built to do more and win the NFC and get to a Super Bowl.

Signing period hasn’t even started and you’re already judging them for decisions they haven’t even had a chance to make!

No, they didn’t trade for Ramsey. I’m sure Holmes knew the price. If he chose not to pay it, well, he knows Ramsey as well as anyone else. He also knows his own draft plans. And if Ramsey had his mind set on Miami, so be it. Word out of LA is that he was a headache. Maybe sour grapes, who knows. Anyway, not trading for Ramsey does not doom the Lions to a failed 2023 season. 

[Motown Bombers]

 

[1984Echoes]

57 minutes ago, Jason_R said:

Signing period hasn’t even started and you’re already judging them for decisions they haven’t even had a chance to make!

No, they didn’t trade for Ramsey. I’m sure Holmes knew the price. If he chose not to pay it, well, he knows Ramsey as well as anyone else. He also knows his own draft plans. And if Ramsey had his mind set on Miami, so be it. Word out of LA is that he was a headache. Maybe sour grapes, who knows. Anyway, not trading for Ramsey does not doom the Lions to a failed 2023 season. 

Plus the 20 mill per annum that he wants, with I don't know how much guaranteed...

[Motown Bombers]

Miami gave Ramsey guaranteed the $35 million owed to him the next two years. 

[holygoat]

2 hours ago, Motown Bombers said:

I think there is a plan and the Lions may be ahead of schedule and the fortunes in the NFC North have changed, doesn't mean they will deviate from the plan. Also keeps in mind the Lions were the 2nd youngest roster in the NFL last year. A lot of their core players haven't even hit their ceiling yet. I think there is an expectations to allow the young players to develop and take them to the playoffs. 

I think it should accelerate the plan, because these windows open and shut quickly. The North will likely suck next year, and Detroit is in a position to take it and the home playoff game that comes with winning it. The fact that the Lions roster is so young is why I think they should be adding high-end vets to help in their development. That they were in on Ramsey is a great sign, even if it seems like they never had a realistic shot. At least they made the call.

[NYLion]

3 hours ago, Jason_R said:

Even if they are a player or two away from Super Bowl contention (and I think, with a few lucky bounces, they are), who is to say that any one or two available free agents is/are the player they need?

Also, there is this assumption (not from you but from others) that if Holmes and Campbell don't write a big check that necessarily means they don't care about winning or don't understand their "window." That's absurd. They want to win more than we want them to win. Their incentives are to win, and to establish a franchise that will be competitive year after year. Sheila wants them to win. She has done nothing to indicate that she will not support them financially, and in fact everything she has done indicates that she is willing to spend. 

For sure, I wasn't implying that they don't want to spend or that they don't recognize the window. I just think they stick to a long term plan and primarily build through homegrown growth and free agents that are hungry to prove their worth. I also think that having these extra high picks this year will lessen the urgency to splurge in free agency due to having more shots to find starters in the draft.

I will say though that I'm a bit surprised that they were in on Ramsey so perhaps this indicates that they might go bigger in free agency. We'll find out soon either way.

[Jason_R]

1 minute ago, NYLion said:

For sure, I wasn't implying that they don't want to spend or that they don't recognize the window. I just think they stick to a long term plan and primarily build through homegrown growth and free agents that are hungry to prove their worth. I also think that having these extra high picks this year will lessen the urgency to splurge in free agency due to having more shots to find starters in the draft.

I will say though that I'm a bit surprised that they were in on Ramsey so perhaps this indicates that they might go bigger in free agency. We'll find out soon either way.

Yes, I was responding to the same post you were responding to. We agree that Holmes knows what he’s doing… and shouldn’t get hammered for not making decisions he can’t start making until next week  😂

I still haven’t seen anything to indicate they were “IN” on Ramsey. There were rumors for obvious reasons, and undoubtedly Holmes called to check the price, or was called to gauge interest. But usually if things get heated up someone (an agent) leaks it. There were no such leaks which makes me suspect that Holmes probably didn’t do anything more than see the Rams’ asking price and Ramsey’s contract expectations. 

[Motown Bombers]

This would work for me. 

 

[Stanley70]

Free agency week is here. The Lions have pretty much the same cap space going in as they had last year. They have will to create some room to resign some of their own free agents and add a piece or two from outside. Here is what i think they will do.

They will keep Romeo and cut Vaitai and Harris.

They will resign Cominsky, Anzalone, Elliot, and Buggs on defense. They will let Harris and Hughes go.

On offense they will keep Williams and let Brown and Chark go.

Beyond that they will look for a decent CB that doesn't require a multi year deal. And look to add depth with budget signings on the OL and another CB.

Obviously if othere organizations value some of our free agents more than Holmes does they may not be able to bring them all back.

[Motown Bombers]

 

[Motown Bombers]

 

[Hongbit]

Interested to see how this impacts Cominsky.  

I’d like to have both but prefer Cominsky if we can only get one.  Buggs is better than to get left with nothing.   

[Motown Bombers]

Surprised one of Okwara or Harris hasn't been cut yet. I would have figured they would want to do them right and cut them early so they can latch on with another team.